Drunk's Blogs - Kyogre VS Chaos

 

(TN by Me)

(TN By SpriteFightMan)



“Even the tides of the world bow before the storm of inevitability.”


Kyogre, Hoenn’s Primordial Lord of the Sea.


Chaos, The God of Destruction.


The Ocean is a mysterious and terrifying place and with their powers, these 2 legendary Leviathans show why they’re truly the Overlords of the Ocean. 

Chaos, the god of destruction from Sonic Adventure, and Kyogre, the Creator of the Sea from Pokémon. Today, we’ll find out which of these Aquatic antagonists is the true ruler of the sea!


Before we begin…


Research Leads - Radiant Claire (Kyogre), TheDrunkGiraffe (Chaos), 


Researchers - BlursedSV, Bridgette, El Cato, FinalCometVA, Man of Action, MiaMagic, Mugen Kage, SPRITE, Windindi, 


Shoutout to Epsilon for providing Calcs and helping in areas! Shoutout to Soggy for providing some BTV Images!


It goes without saying but check out my video on the Matchup for my PERSONAL Verdict
 
Thanks to the UK banning Imgur we had to pivot to ImageChest for all of our linked images and clips so that's what you'll see throughout the blog.
 
EDIT: I would like to edit this in here, but some people have 'caught on' to us using other feats from various blogs, this is something VERY normal for blogs...however the recent Red VS Tai blog from Off Season had some feats one of us copy pasted word-for-word, whilst this is only a few feats, and I had no real part in Kyogre's research as outlined above, I apologise on behalf of the Herd and will update the blog to reword certain feats. The sources used for some calcs are outlined at the end, even if a good chunk are orignal to us, I forgot to do this in the original draft and I again apologise for this, the list was there but I have been pre-occupied with my Mother needing to go the hospital today and goofed there.

In regards to media, Kyogre will be the usual composite between Game, Anime, and Manga. With TMs, only TMs Kyogre has been able to purchase itself without a trainer in other media has been allowed. Unlike last time, I decided on no Trading Card Game, it feels a bit weird and that was very silly of us.


For Chaos, we are just looking at the Games and IDW Comics (for scaling). Sonic X is also here for fluff but it does not add too much, Chaos isn’t in much and it’s kind of a shame like you’d think he’d at least of been in Sonic Rivals or someth- ANYWAYS!


Background:

Kyogre:

“The 'beginning' that Primal Kyogre brings about... The way that it resets the world... It starts by driving every living thing on this planet to death first! This path leads only to an inescapable despair that cannot be withstood. That is all you have brought us. This is what comes from the madness of thinking that you could ever control the super-ancient Pokémon's power!”


Long before humanity explored the oceans, there was a beast within the sea lying dormant. Kyogre is the primordial Pokémon responsible for expanding the seas and creating the vast oceans that cover the planet today, alongside being locked in an endless rivalry with Groudon, whose own power expanded the land. Their clashes were so catastrophic that Rayquaza repeatedly had to descend from the heavens to restore balance, a classic struggle between sea, land, and sky.

As mentioned, Kyogre spent much of its existence dormant, sealed away after its ancient conflicts threatened the world. It would eventually be awakened by foolish humans convinced they could harness its power for a greater purpose. Enter Archie, leader of Team Aqua. He believed humanity had damaged the natural world through overdevelopment, Archie sought to awaken Kyogre and expand the oceans, creating a planet where Pokémon could thrive. Somewhat noble intentions aside, his plan had one small teeny tiny flaw…

…the moment Kyogre was released, it became clear that Hoenn was screwed. Endless rainstorms battered the region as sea levels began rising, and the region was on the brink of collapse. And Archie discovered far too late that Kyogre does not take orders.

With Hoenn facing destruction, it ultimately fell to a singular Pokémon Trainer to succeed where everyone else had failed. Journeying across the region, the Trainer calmed Kyogre and brought an end to the storm threatening the world. Canon aside, Kyogre has remained one of Pokémon's most revered and feared legends - the lone Alpha of the sea.

Chaos:

“My heart has always been in the Master Emerald, along with Chaos'. Now he's filled with anger and sadness. And if it goes on, he'll eventually destroy the world, as he did before!”


The servers are the seven Chaos. Chaos is power...Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos. Long before Knuckles ever became the guardian of the Master Emerald, Chaos served as the guardian of the Chao, the Chaos Emeralds, and the Master Emerald. A mysterious water-based lifeform tied to the power of the Emeralds, Chaos lived peacefully alongside the Chao at what would eventually become Angel Island. For countless years, it simply watched over them, acting as a protector for the little guys (who should be brought back in Frontiers 2). 

That peace came to an end when the Echidna Tribe, led by Pachacamac, sought to seize the Chaos Emeralds for themselves. Their attack devastated the Chao, and in witnessing the suffering inflicted upon those it had sworn to protect, Chaos was consumed by grief and rage. Drawing upon the negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds, it transformed into Perfect Chaos and unleashed its wrath upon the Echidna civilization, wiping it out in a single catastrophic rampage. The destruction was so immense that Tikal, Pachacamac's own daughter, was forced to seal both herself and Chaos within the Master Emerald to prevent further tragedy.

Centuries later, Chaos was released by one Ivo Robotnik - Dr. Eggman, who sought to exploit its power as the ultimate weapon. As Chaos absorbed more Chaos Emeralds, it steadily evolved through increasingly powerful forms, all while Eggman foolishly believed he was in control. By the time it once again became Perfect Chaos and threatened to destroy the world, it wasn't acting out of ambition or malice, but out of pain and trauma, aligning itself with nobody.

With the world facing destruction, there was but a lone hedgehog to stand up to the God of Destruction. Sonic understood Chaos wasn't an inherently evil entity and helped show Chaos that the Chao it protected were safe, and that vengeance would never heal its wounds, literally neutralizing it with positive energy. Realizing this, Chaos abandoned its rage and departed peacefully alongside Tikal. So, thanks to Sonic and friends, it learned to open its heart again, as in the end, everything is gonna be alright.

Skill, Experience, and Intellect:

Kyogre:


As one of the ‘ancients’ that shaped the planet itself, Kyogre has existed since the dawn of the world, expanding and creating the oceans. That alone gives it a lifespan that few beings in-verse can rival. More importantly, Kyogre hasn't spent those eons sitting idle as its rivalry with Groudon has raged for millions of years, alongside Rayquaza, who was even pushed into Mega evolution during their fight in the anime! That means Kyogre has an absurd amount of experience battling opponents on its own level. Across the games, anime, and various side material, Kyogre has crossed paths with powerhouses such as Lugia, Kyurem, and even the Creation Trio themselves.

While most Pokémon generally aren't as intelligent as humans, they're still vastly more intelligent than ordinary animals, and Kyogre is no exception. Legendary Pokémon often have higher intelligence than normal Pokémon, and are shown to be somewhat creative as Groudon realized his only way out of his containment area in the anime is controlling Pikachu rather than continuously thrashing around. Similarly, in the Adventures manga Kyogre and Groudon both realize what Ruby and Sapphire are up to and stop fighting in order to defeat them first. 

So overall, while Kyogre isn't a mastermind by any means. It’s definitely smarter than you’d think at a first glance, and has the experience necessary to improvise to manage any dangerous situation.

Chaos:

Chaos isn't exactly a strategic mastermind or even that experienced, largely because it spends most of its existence as a passive guardian rather than an active combatant. It generally only lashes out when provoked, as seen with the Echidna Tribe and later Eggman. Despite this, Sonic Channel describes Chaos as possessing a high level of intelligence even if we don't see it, and is apparently skilled enough to make a pretty great pizza. 

In battle, it is capable of tracking Sonic's movements with its hydrokinesis even while he's moving at high speeds. It's also powerful and skilled enough to defeat Knuckles, a seasoned martial artist, escaped Silvers psychokinesis via manipulating water nearby to attack him, and during its original rampage effortlessly wiped out the Echidna Tribe before standing guard over the Master Emerald for generations afterward. Sonic himself knows a few martial arts (as well as having his skill complimented by masters that have a millennia of experience).

Chaos also displays impressive physical capabilities, being able to leap to the height of skyscrapers, and scale tall structures with ease. That said, its mentality changes significantly upon becoming Perfect Chaos. After absorbing the negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds, its rage appears to overwhelm much of its usual composure, making it more destructive but seemingly less controlled. It's also worth remembering that Chaos has spent tens of thousands of years, sealed within the Master Emerald, meaning much of its existence has been spent dormant rather than actively honing its combat skills or experience.


Equipment:


Kyogre:


Blue Orb:

An ancient relic forged from the concentrated Primal Energy of Hoenn. It allows Kyogre to undergo Primal Reversion, awakening the full extent of its power and turning it into Primal Kyogre. Once activated, it appears to be absorbed directly into Kyogre's body, becoming part of itself. 

While the Orb can be used to influence or control Kyogre, the reverse is also true. If a human or Pokémon comes into prolonged contact with the Blue Orb, the Orb can begin taking control of their minds on Kyogre's behalf. Pikachu, for example, was overwhelmed in a matter of 5 seconds, while Archie was able to resist for about 30 minutes before eventually succumbing. This suggests that more advanced minds can resist for longer. Across both the anime and manga, the Orb is shown being absorbed (ignore the fact it says the indigo orb, it's an error in the subtitles), physically bonding with its host, to the point where removing it becomes nearly impossible without outside intervention as shown with it bonding to Archie's skin.

It's explicitly stated to work its way toward the victim's brain, at which point the possession becomes complete. Strong-willed individuals can temporarily resist this process and even force the Orb from their body before it fully takes hold, but once the connection is finalized, you're Kyogre's pawn. Should the Orb eventually be removed, the victim typically collapses unconscious and later awakens with little to no memory of what happened while they were under its control. So yeah, Mind Control Whale.

Empowerment Seed:

An item from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon Rescue Team DX. This allows Kyogre to undergo primal reversion when eaten. The only difference is if the player decided to be an ass and steal from Kecleon, you're unable to mega evolve (Kecleon > Rayquaza???).

Chao


Rings:

The most standard and recognizable Sonic collectable! Their main purpose from a gameplay stand-point is to keep the player alive, Chaos has access to them in several appearances such as Adventure 2.

But surely they don’t matter in lore? Well:


Chaos Emeralds:


Originally protected by Chaos and the Chao, they would eventually fall into Eggman's hands, who used their power to transform Chaos into the ultimate weapon. The Emeralds can "turn thoughts into power," which is about as vague as it sounds. They're essentially miracle gems capable of producing wildly different effects depending on who is using them and what they wish to accomplish.

Chaos is no different and has his own unique abilities through their power. Throughout Sonic Adventure, it absorbs the negative energy contained within the seven Emeralds, causing it to evolve into powerful forms before eventually becoming Perfect Chaos. Meanwhile, Sonic taps into the positive energy, or as the game calls it, the Emeralds' "real power," to become Super Sonic. Eggman even claims that Chaos would become "invincible" upon obtaining all seven Emeralds. Granted, Perfect Chaos doesn't gain the traditional invulnerability associated with most Super Forms, but the statement still demonstrates how absurdly powerful the Emeralds are considered in-universe.

They've been used to create plant life (Grass Knot, go!), dissipate weather effects (maybe manipulate the weather in general?), generate convincing visions/illusions, and absorb other forms of energy, including Eggman's mind-control technology. Throughout the series they've also been used to restore lost memories, something that happens often. Chaos himself can even call them back to him via his link to them.

Perhaps most impressively, the Chaos Emeralds have even been involved in bringing characters back from the dead. While this usually requires assistance from multiple users, it demonstrates that resurrection is within the realm of possibility, but given context it is likely moot for 1v1 battles. At the very least, there's little reason to believe they couldn't shrug off transmutation effects or help him resist corruption effects, and wake it from unconsciousness (Can Chaos even fall asleep or unconscious?).

Sonic lore is surprisingly consistent in describing the Chaos Emeralds as possessing infinite power. Whether you take that literally, metaphorically, poetically, theoretically, hypothetically, or somewhere in-between is up to you. And before anyone asks, no, Chaos doesn't use Chaos Control despite being literally named Chaos. The Emeralds may be capable of it, but Chaos itself never demonstrates the same level of mastery over them as characters like Sonic, Shadow, Silver or Metal Sonic. Which is honestly kind of funny and sad when you think about it. Bring him/it back!

Sonic Forces Speed Battle Power-Up boxes:

Each character in the game has 3 unique items they can pull from item boxes, Chaos being no exception:

  • Ice Wave - A wave of Ice that damages and freezes the target.

  • Ice Mine - A mine that Chaos can launch forward, that when activated, encases the victim in ice.

  • Ice Boost - Chaos gains a movement buff as well as an icy trail behind him (why are these moves all Ice based and not water?).

Abilities:

Kyogre:

Pokemon Abilities:

  • Drizzle - From a gameplay perspective, this allows Kyogre to summon rain before the 1st turn of a battle. It also makes Solar Beam and fire-based abilities weaker.

  • Primordial Sea - Drizzle, but it’s exclusive to Primal Kyogre and FULLY negates fire-based attacks.


Water Type Attacks: 

  • Origin Pulse: Kyogre’s signature attack. Attacks opposition with incredibly powerful beams of glowing blue light.

  • Water Pulse: Attacks with an ultrasonic wave of water, which can confuse the opponent. 

  • Hydro Pump: Blasts opponents with a highly pressurized blast of water. Lowered accuracy in exchange for massive damage.

  • Surf: All-purpose spread move that damages opponents with a giant wave of water.

  • Muddy Water: A spread move similar to Surf, which sacrifices accuracy in exchange for possibly lowering the accuracy of hit opponents.

  • Aqua Ring: Summons a veil of water that allows Kyogre to gradually heal.

  • Chilling Water: Basically a cold shower. Lowers the speed of any opponent hit by 1 stage.

  • Water Spout: Spouts water to damage all opponents in range. Damage scales down with the user’s remaining HP (max power at 100% health).

  • Aqua Tail: Swings its tail to inflict physical damage to any opponent in radius.

  • Whirlpool: Traps the target on the field and does steady damage per turn. Does double damage to an opponent who is submerged underwater (see interaction with a Pokémon using Dive).

  • Scald: A blast of boiling hot water with a solid chance to inflict a burn. Burns cut the physical power of the opponent in half.

  • Waterfall: The user covers themselves in a wave of water and tackles the opponent.

  • Brine: A blast of water that does more damage to the opponent if the target's HP is half or below. In the anime it shows no real special properties, just being a big water blast. 

  • Rain Dance: Summons rainfall for 5 turns. Halves the power of Fire-type moves and gives Water-type moves a 50% boost (literally useless when Kyogre does that casually though lol).


Normal Type Attacks:

  • Scary Face: The user frightens the opponent to lower their speed.

  • Body Slam: Self-explanatory physical attack. Solid chance to inflict paralysis, which cuts your speed in half and has a 25% chance in the games to render an opponent unable to do anything when they move.

  • Return/Frustration: Powerful physical attacks with no drawback. Return increases in base power as the user’s bond with its trainer grows, while Frustration is vice versa, but weird to use in this fight.

  • Double Edge: An incredibly powerful tackle that causes recoil damage to the user.

  • Giga Impact: A full-power charge. The user needs to recharge for a bit after using due to its absurd power.

  • Double Team: Raises evasion of the user up to ~3x. In the anime, it’s closer to something like shadow clones.

  • Facade: A physical attack that doubles in power if Kyogre is inflicted with a status condition.

  • Hidden Power: An attack where the user fires a blast of their inherent power. Type depends on a lot of conditions.

  • Hyper Beam: An incredibly strong blast of energy, the user cannot fire it again for a while like with Giga Impact.

  • Protect: A shield that can prevent all damage. However, incredibly strong attacks, such as a Z move, can break through it.

  • Psych Up: The user copies the opponent's stat changes.

  • Roar: The user roars at the opponent and terrifies it, causing it to go back inside its Pokéball. When its a 1v1 it usually just scares whoever its fighting away/ makes them wanna give up.

  • Round: The user sings, and it increases in power after every use.

  • Safeguard: A protective barrier that makes the user and their team entirely immune to status conditions for the time it is active.

  • Sleep Talk: Only works while the user is asleep. Randomly selects a move from the user’s moveset to be used while the user is asleep. Usable in conjunction with Rest.

  • Substitute: Sacrifices 25% of the user’s HP in exchange for creating a doll with HP equivalent to the amount sacrificed. The doll takes attacks for the user until it breaks, using the same stats and traits as the user. Additionally, the doll isn’t really affected by most status conditions and secondary effects of attacks due to…well, being a doll.

  • Swagger: Basically ragebait. Confuses the ragebaited victim and also increases their physical Attack by 2 stages.

  • Secret Power: A special attack that has varying traits and effects depending on the environment it is used in.

  • Endure: Allows the user to survive a normally lethal attack with 1 HP.

  • Natural Gift: Draws power from the user’s held Berry to attack. Traits of the attack change depending on the berry, including power.

  • Take Down: A weaker version of Double-Edge with the same mechanics.


Electric Type Attacks:

  • Thunderbolt: A powerful bolt of lightning with a 10% chance to induce paralysis.

  • Thunder: A less accurate but far more devastating blast of lightning with a 30% chance to induce paralysis.

  • Thunder Wave: A weak, non-damaging jolt of electricity that immediately induces paralysis in the target.

  • Shock Wave: A quick, relatively weak jolt of electricity that completely bypasses accuracy and evasiveness checks. I.e., it never misses.


Ice Type Attacks:

  • Ice Beam: An icy beam of energy that does single-target damage and has a chance of freezing on hit.

  • Sheer Cold: An EXTREMELY powerful absolute-zero attack which damages all targets in range and is guaranteed to freeze. In exchange for being the strongest Ice move, it takes a relatively long time to carry out while also having a few second cooldown in most animated media (in the games it has a catch where if the opponent is higher level than the opponent Sheer Cold will fail. However, this is likely just a gameplay mechanic).

  • Blizzard: Wide-range, high-damage blizzard with a chance to freeze targets. Lower accuracy normally, but always hits when used in a snowstorm.

  • Hail: Starts a snowstorm for 5 turns.

  • Avalanche: Physical attack that doubles in power if the user was hurt before using it in the same turn.


Ground Type Attacks:

  • Earthquake: An incredibly powerful earthquake attack that damages all opponents in range. No drawbacks in a 1-on-1 fight, but is only able to deal around ¾ of its typical power output to each opponent when attacking multiple.

  • Bulldoze: Weaker earth-shaking attack which also damages all opponents in range. Additionally lowers the speed of all targets hit.


Rock Type Attacks:

  • Ancient Power: a barrage of rocks imbued with the power of the user, may also raise the user’s stats on hit by 1 stage.

  • Rock Slide: Drops a swarm of boulders above the head of the opponent. May cause flinching, which prevents moving.

  • Rock Tomb: Drops a large boulder on the opponent to slow them down (1 stage decrease).


Psychic Type Attacks:

  • Rest: Rests for 2 turns in exchange for healing HP to full and restoring all status conditions.

  • Calm Mind: Raises Special Attack and Special Defense by 1 stage each (1 stage increase = 50% additive boost, up to 6 stages/4x multiplier).

  • Confide: The user tells the opponent a secret to distract and catch them off guard (Chaos is gonna die when it hears about Kyogre's crush on-)


Poison Type Attacks:

  • Toxic: Badly poisons a target. Damage inflicted over time snowballs significantly until survival is essentially impossible.

Fighting Type Attacks:

  • Brick Break: A single-target physical attack that can destroy barriers.

  • Rock Smash: A relatively weak physical attack that reduces the target’s physical defense with each hit.


Bug Type Attacks:

  • Signal Beam: A flashing beam of light that deals moderate damage to a single target, which may also confuse opponents on hit.


Steel Type Attacks:

  • Heavy Slam: An even HEAVIER body slam than Body Slam. Does single-target damage and has a higher base power depending on how much heavier Kyogre is than its target (best when target weight <= 20% of Kyogre’s weight, worst when target weight >= 50% of Kyogre’s weight).


Stat stage modifiers are explained in this helpful page from Bulbapedia!


Miscellaneous Abilities:

Basically just all the stuff from the anime/pokedex that aren’t traditional gameplay moves


Weather Control: 

Despite being a big ass-whale, it can create giant storms! With a single clap of its fins, Kyogre can create island-sized tornadoes and call down bolts of lightning and thunder. In generations we see him create cyclones as well.


Hydrokinesis (No Shit):

And we don’t just mean shooting water here. He began flooding all of Hoenn within seconds of waking up in Generations, and in lore it created all Water on Earth, and could certainly flood the Planet further if it felt like it. The exact method Kyogre used to create the Water is unknown, from its body or some form of creation feat. However, we know Kyogre has complete manipulation over pre-existing water.


Cryokinesis: 

It can flash freeze 600+ meters of ocean water in seconds with sheer cold in the Gen 6 anime.


Flight:

Big fuckin flying whale.


Mind Control:

In the anime and manga Archie, Maxie, and Pikachu are fully taken over by Kyogre and Groudon and it's stated that touching the Blue or Red Orb will eventually fully take over the mind of the user. This is something Groudon has used in an offensive way with Pikachu as he used him to break him out of his cage, thus Kyogre using this in an offensive way is not off the table during the fight. 


Energy Absorption: 

When Archie and Maxie are possessed by the Blue and Red orbs they explicitly gain the powers of Kyogre and Groudon Temporarily. This gives them basic pyro and hydrokinesis, but they also gain the ability to drain the energy of everyone in the Seafloor Cavern at once. 


Exponential Power Growth:

In the manga it's stated that Groudon and Kyogre’s power grows exponentially as they fight. They state their bottomless energy will continue to grow until it eventually destroys the entire region. This would mean that as it fights, Kyogre would slowly grow stronger until it matches the opponent. You could make the argument that this is only for when fighting Groudon due to Kyogre’s unrelenting hatred for Groudon, but there isn’t anything that makes it lean one way or another in the Ruby and Sapphire manga. 


Control over other water-type Pokémon (Debatable): 

Various Pokémon side games suggest Kyogre has some control over water-type Pokémon. Pokémon Ranger has a bunch of water-type Pokémon attack a city, and Kyogre is revealed to be behind it. The Pokémon rumble games allow him to continuously summon water types into his arena (although this one likely isn’t good evidence), and in the Explorers series, Kyogre can bestow the Aqua Monica, which similarly calls water types to his location.

This does somewhat extend to the Blue Orb as Pikachu did not want the Red Orb, and was still compelled to grab it which let Groudon control him.


Resistances:


Water, Fire, Ice, Steel-type moves. Yeah not much to say here.

Chaos:

Physiology:

Chaos (the character) is originally a Chao, a descendant of a race called the Ancients. This Chao evolved into a unique lifeform composed almost entirely of water and Chaos Energy.

What this means is that conventional damage barely means anything to it. Punch a normal person through the chest and big ouchy. Punch Chaos through the chest and it simply reforms the missing section a moment later. Its body lacks organs or bones outside of its brain, allowing it to freely reshape itself whenever necessary. This also lets Chaos stretch its limbs, extending them or spinning them around as weapons.

Chaos can also transition between 'solid' (as one made of water can be) and liquid states, as it can turn into a puddle of water, and then immediately reform elsewhere. It is also capable of merging with much larger bodies of water, this includes entire rivers and lakes.

It can even enter and manipulate other organisms from the inside like it did Froggy. While not something it uses often, Chaos can essentially invade another body and puppet it. As if all that wasn't enough, it also makes it resistant to Bullets, missiles, you name it.

Immortality:

If we take him being the God of Destruction literally, Chaos would naturally be Immortal. Makes enough sense given the ancient Echidna Tribe is described as ancient for a reason, not to mention it literally being composed of Water molecules giving him a form of immortality.


Hydrokinesis:

Now, I know this next ability may come as a shock, but the giant sentient water monster can control water.

Jokes aside, hydrokinesis is Chaos' signature ability. Chaos can unleash enormous streams of water, and there doesn't appear to be any limit to how many it can fire. It can also launch rapid-fire water blasts. Chaos can further shape water into tendrils and appendages, allowing it to attack or restrain targets. Additionally, it can manipulate water not attached to him, but the exact volume is unknown.

Several forms can generate multiple massive waternados, and Perfect Chaos was able to absorb and control the water flooding Station Square, effectively turning an entire city's worth of water into its personal weapon.

Sonic Channel also implies it can purify and maintain the waters surrounding the Emerald shrine, keeping them clean and healthy. Chaos apparently doubles as a water filtration system, neat I guess?


Sonic Adventure 2 Abilities: 

Little known fact, but Chaos was indeed in Sonic Adventure 2. The multiplayer at least. He has 3 unique abilities:

  • Chaos Impact - Chaos jumps into the air and then strikes the ground with a punch on the way down, inflicting a large shock that triggers an earthquake to trip its opponents. 

  • Chaos Strike - Chaos Strike targets the opponent wherever they might be and causes damage when it hits. Additionally, it disorientates the opponent for a short while by mixing the opposing player's controls. It is nearly impossible to avoid, unless the other player either uses Dig or Glide. 

  • Chaos Bind (Diet Chaos Control) - Chaos uses his hydrokinesis to freeze the air around his opponent, leaving them immobilized for 30 seconds (wtf is that game balance). The only escape is mashing buttons (how does that even work in a VS Debate?).


Sonic Battle Abilities:

Chaos is surprisingly playable in the GBA game Sonic Battle (modern rerelease please for NSO I want to actually play this):

  • Chaos Shot - Using Water Spirits, Chaos fires a projectile.

  • Air Shot - Using the power of water spirits, Chaos fires a projectile at opponents.

  • Chaos Splash - Chaos creates a trap via a puddle.

  • Air Splash - He dives down to the floor to create a puddle that shoots water, acting as a trap when stepped on.

  • Double Stab - Big ol’ water tentacle.

  • Chaos Combo - A move Emerl copied from Chaos. A combo ending in the tentacle.

  • Chaos Crush (40) - Using the power of water spirits, he creates a tentacle…but this time there’s 3!

  • Air Crush - Crush in the sky!

  • Chaos Dive - Chaos turns into a puddle to increase mobility.

  • Chaos Dolphin - Using the power of water spirits, Chaos becomes a fucking Dolphin to attack those he lands on (Could not find footage and I am sad).

  • Chaos Flight - Using the power of air spirits, he can fly (more like levitation).

  • Chaos Heal - Chaos utilities water elementals to heal damage. It also restores his Ichikoro Gauge a little.

  • Chaos Guard - Chaos utilizes water elementals to block damage. If Chaos reflects an attack, half of his Ichikoro Gauge is refilled. If a special move is blocked, then all of the Ichikoro Gauge is refilled. Additionally, it can block Ichikoro Gauge attacks.

  • Chaos Impact - Using water spirits, Chaos claps to knock foes into the ground.

  • Chaos Rocket - Impact but airborne.

  • Elastic Chaos - Chaos uses a downward jabbing motion to attack foes.

  • Upper Chaos - I’m tired of mentioning the water spirits. Chaos plunges its arm into the ground to create a fountain to knock enemies into the air.

  • Stretch Chaos - Chaos lunges at enemies.

  • Flexible Chaos - Slams his arm down to the ground to damage enemies.

  • Ichikoro Gauge - A Gauge that when filled all the way, will one-hit K.O. the enemy.


Levitation/Gliding:

Bit hesitant on calling it direct flight, but in Sonic Adventure 2, Chaos demonstrates the ability to glide like Knuckles. Additionally, instead of running in Speed Battle, he hovers along the track.


Energy Absorption/Drainage:

Whilst he can be damaged, he still has some limited absorption capabilities, mainly the absorption of Chaos Energy from the Chaos Emeralds, it’s kinda his deal. Chaos gets stronger after every Emerald he absorbs. Not to mention he also drained the emeralds of their energy (the Negative Energy at least).


Regeneration:

Could have placed this in the Physiology section, but it's noteworthy enough to be highlighted here. Remember, Chaos can manipulate his body into puddles and come back from it, reiterated when Neo Metal Sonic copies Chaos’ biological data and does the same. Hell, Knuckles, and Sonic shatter it to ice and it comes back off-screen!



Resistances (See BTV):

  • Vacuum of Space/Extreme Cold (debatable) - Pretty much all of Sonic’s cast can breathe in Space. Don’t question it. Chaos however can be frozen so this is a bit weird.

  • Limited Space-Time manipulation (Debatable) - In Sonic Battle, a lot of characters like, say, Shadow, have attacks that ‘distort space-time’. The cast being able to take these hits imply some questionable resistance (I say that since a Chaos Control would still work on Chaos).

  • Status Effects (Debatable) - When Sonic went Super, the effects of The Metal Virus dissipated.

  • Mind Control (Debatable) - An Emerald can prevent mind control, not much to say. Why is it debatable? Sonic Brotherhood, the non-canon game. However this can be reinforced a little by the next bullet point. . 

  • Memory Alteration (Debatable) - Eggman did a thing and everyone’s memories vanished…except Sonic and Tails thanks to the Emeralds in the form of Tiaras.

  • Permanent Power Drainage (Potentially Non-Applicable) - At least the Emeralds are. Although the Emeralds can be drained, they can be recharged with positive energy (therapy works kids). Theoretically Chaos should be able to recharge them with negative energy too. Not to mention, the Chaos Emeralds negated Dark Oak’s energy draining…right? Still, recharging isn’t something Chaos has been shown to do.


Forms:

Kyogre:

Primal Form:

Primal Kyogre is Kyogre's original, unrestrained form from the ancient past. This was the same incarnation that plunged the region into chaos during its conflict with Groudon, forcing Rayquaza to intervene and restore balance.

Upon undergoing Primal Reversion, Kyogre's power increases dramatically and it gains the ability Primordial Sea, a weather effect so powerful that it completely suppresses all Fire-type attacks.

Interestingly, Kyogre can no longer naturally access this state. After being defeated by Rayquaza in the past, it lost the ability to freely return to its primal form and instead requires an external source of Primal Energy - the Blue Orb. The Orb provides Kyogre with the energy necessary to awaken its original state once more.

Chaos:


Chaos 0:

Chaos in its natural state. Essentially a sentient puddle of water with a face, brain and some trauma. At this stage, Chaos hasn't absorbed any Chaos Emeralds and is naturally the weakest. Despite that, it's already a surprisingly dangerous opponent thanks to its fluid body and all the other fun stuff mentioned in abilities. 


Chaos 1:

After absorbing a single Chaos Emerald, Chaos evolves into Chaos 1. The power boost is... certainly there, but visually the biggest change is that Chaos appears to have grown a giant Popeye arm.

Chaos 1 doesn't demonstrate many new abilities compared to its base form, serving mostly as the first sign that the Emeralds are causing Chaos to mutate into increasingly powerful states.


Chaos 2:


Two Emeralds in and Chaos finally starts expanding its toolkit. Most importantly, it now has two Popeye arms!

Chaos 2 gains the ability to generate powerful force fields capable of blocking attacks while allowing its body to freely morph and reshape inside the barrier. Strong enough attacks can break through, but it's still a useful defensive option. 

Offensively, Chaos can transform itself into a giant bubble for ramming attacks, fire energy beams, and manipulate puddles of water over a much larger area to attack. It can even split portions of its body apart and attack from multiple angles simultaneously.

The boss fight also sucks so I didn't know about half of these abilities since you kill it so fast.

Chaos 3 (Big Drip):

Chaos 4:


After absorbing four Chaos Emeralds, Chaos begins looking far more aquatic. During its battle with Sonic, Chaos 4 even turns the surrounding water into a murky swamp-like environment, nasty.

This form comes with several new abilities, including levitation, water tornado generation, and dark-energy waves. Chaos can also fragment its body to an even greater extent than before, attacking opponents from multiple directions at once. 

This boss also sucks…I'm sensing a pattern.


Chaos 6:

Then we get to Chaos 6...it sure looks like something. Here, it becomes a bizarre mass of tentacles and mouths. 

Chaos 6 becomes far more adept at using its tentacles, can charge its attacks with Chaos Energy, generate shockwaves around its body, and even perform a vacuum-like inhale attack. Physical attacks also become dramatically less effective, as its physiology makes it incredibly difficult to meaningfully damage through brute force alone (you can still climb it apparently so its liquid still has some density to it).

That said, this is also the form that got absolutely demolished by Big the Cat. Make of that information what you will. 

Now you might not believe me… but this boss fight sucks too.

PERFECT Chaos: 

Finally, we arrive at Perfect Chaos - the same form that annihilated the Echidna civilization and earned the title of "God of Destruction" from Eggman himself. By absorbing all seven Chaos Emeralds and drawing upon their negative energy, Chaos transforms into a colossal sea serpent towering above tall buildings.

Perfect Chaos retains many abilities from its earlier forms while massively amplifying them. It can create enormous barriers, unleash gigantic water tornadoes, fire energy blasts, launch both orange and purple projectiles attacks, and absorb and redirect incoming projectiles such as missiles. It can also generate storms and completely merge with massive bodies of water like with Station Square, effectively turning entire flooded environments into extensions of itself.

Earlier forms could recover from being splattered into puddles, but as long as sufficient water remains nearby, destroying Perfect’s body becomes largely meaningless, as it can simply reform again and again. Even after being defeated by Super Sonic, Chaos was still capable of reverting back to Chaos 0 without issue.


Feats:

Kyogre:

Overall:


  • Created the Earth's oceans.

  • Battled Groudon since the dawn of the Earth.

Power:

You never get a clear shot of the ice; however, there are a few factors to keep in mind:

  1. It's strong enough to hold the 400 Kilogram Mega Rayquaza, and 1000 Kilogram Primal Groudon without shattering, and-

  2. Mega Rayquaza in the anime is somewhere around 150 meters long, as he's relative to the skyscrapers in the Hoopa film (the average skyscraper is 200 meters, but Rayquaza was clearly a bit smaller in the film). And during his Dragon Ascent, Rayquaza Flies for multiple seconds with the frozen ocean around him, making him look as big as an Orthworm

  3. With this all in mind, Kyogre was seemingly able to freeze a generous estimate of 600 meters of ocean water into a completely frozen landscape where it was able to support 400 Kilograms of Rayquaza landing on it without shattering with a SINGLE Sheer cold. (not to mention it also flash freezes Groudon for a few seconds in that attack who's a literal being made of molten rock)

Speed:

Durability:


Chaos:

Overall:

Power:

Speed:

Durability:


Scaling:

Kyogre:

Wild Pokémon:

Thanks to Kyogre’s status as a legendary Pokémon, he should upscale most regular Pokémon, which should include the following: 


Trainers and their own Pokémon:

Pretty self-explanatory. While it is debatable whether Kyogre should scale to every trainer, it’s likely he scales to most trainers that don’t include the top tiers.


Weather Trio + Deoxys:

Does this really require an explanation? Kyogre regularly battles both Groudon & Rayquaza. While he loses most of his bouts to Rayquaza, he remains a consistent threat and has stalemated him before, even forcing him into Mega Rayquaza. And Rayquaza’s battles with Deoxys mean that they should naturally scale. Elaborated more in BTVs.


Groudon:


Rayquaza:


Deoxys:


Other Legendaries and Mythicals:

Most of these should be fine. Kyogre is literally a fundamental component of the planet, so scaling to other legendaries who embody concepts on equal necessity should be adequate for scaling. Some of them however…for more explanation, See Kyogre’s Scaling Section in Before The Verdicts


Creation Trio (Debatable):

Hoopa Movie, Rayquaza, NEXT! In all seriousness, though, I’m getting tired of writing the same thing, so just check Before The Verdicts.

Chaos:

Adventure-Era Feats:

Thanks to, well, originating from this era, Chaos should comfortably scale to feats performed by Classic and Adventure Era fighters:


Sonic and Friends:

Thanks to his tangle with Sonic and his friends in Adventure, Battle, etc. Chaos has arguments that he can scale to Sonic and Co., and while we won’t get into much here, it is debatable whether or not Chaos can scale to the Modern Era feats. See Before The Verdicts to see where we stand on that.


The Chaos Emeralds:

It’s less Chaos ‘scales’ to them and more he literally absorbs their negative energy to empower his forms, eventually draining their energy completely to achieve Perfect Chaos. It feels a bit odd to include their direct feats in Chaos’ direct feats so this is the best compromise:

  • The Paradox Prism crunched the entire universe into nothing (1.46 quintillion C) (Universal - Low Multi, See BTV).

Misc:


Super Sonic Level Threats (Debatable, See Before The Verdicts):

Since Chaos has fought against Sonic after the events of Sonic Shuffle, he should scale to the likes of Void. Once again, it’s a debatable topic on whether or not Chaos can scale to the likes of, say, Time Eater, Solaris, etc. Regardless, See the Chaos Scaling Section in Before The Verdicts.



Weaknesses:

Kyogre:

For all of Kyogre's power, it isn't without weaknesses. As a pure Water-type, Kyogre is vulnerable to Electric and Grass-type attacks. More interesting are Kyogre's mental vulnerabilities, as Kyogre has shown a susceptibility to hypnosis, mind manipulation, and similar effects. In the anime, Lana's Primarina was able to put it to sleep without much difficulty, while in Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, Hoopa controlled Kyogre for a significant portion of the film. While neither feat necessarily means Kyogre is mentally weak, they do demonstrate that its mind isn't immune to outside influence.

During Pokemon Ranger and the Temple of the Sea, The Phantom used a high-pitched device that significantly debilitated Kyogre, suggesting that certain frequencies or sensory disruptions can interfere with it. 

In Sun & Moon Episode 120, Kyogre was weakened to the point that it couldn't even break free from an electrical containment barrier.

Chaos:

Chaos actually has a few surprisingly exploitable weaknesses. The most obvious comes from Chaos 6, which can be completely immobilized by freezing. While the ice doesn't permanently defeat it and Chaos will eventually thaw out on its own, it leaves Chaos unable to move or fight back until then. Given how much of Chaos' physiology revolves around being liquid, this isn't too shocking. 

More importantly, Chaos does possess a genuine weak point - its brain. Despite being composed primarily of water and Chaos Energy, Chaos still relies on a central brain-like organ like me or you. Damaging this structure is consistently shown to disperse its body, or outright defeat it. Even Perfect Chaos isn't exempt from this.

Transforming into Perfect Chaos also requires tremendous amounts of energy from the Chaos Emeralds, and there's no indication that Chaos can independently recharge them once they're drained. If Perfect Chaos is defeated and reverts back to Chaos 0, that's likely it for transformations. This also creates an interesting debate regarding any resistances or special properties granted by the Emeralds, since maintaining those benefits may depend on Chaos continuing to draw power from them in the first place.

Perfect Chaos also suffers from a more...psychological flaw shall we say. Once it reaches its final form, Chaos becomes consumed by its desire for destruction. Whether you consider that a true weakness or simply a character trait is up for debate, but tunnel vision has a habit of getting exploited in fiction.


Before the verdicts…


Pokémon Cosmology:

Oh boy here we go, now if you’re not convinced Kyogre can even scale to parts of the cosmology through the likes of the Creation Trio, we’ll get to that. Let’s try breaking this down as simply as possible:


The basics of the Universe and Multiverse:


As for what we know, at least the Universe has infinite time and space, as stated directly by Gen 4s director. This is expanded upon in legends Arceus as there not just being infinite time and space for the main universe, but there being ‘innumerable’ other Universes as well (doesn’t mean infinite). These parallel dimensions were created by Palkia (some of these suggest that Palkia is the master of ‘spatial dimensions’, but some blatantly state he made multiple universes). If that wasn’t enough, the anime directly uses many worlds interpretation - meaning every choice branches a new world. Scientists have also stated that interactions in one timeline can be happening in another unconnected timeline, due to the innumerable complexities of space-time.


There’s also areas like The Dream World and The Cyberspace (might just be a fancy term for electricity), where not much is known about them, but them being separate universes would add to the cosmology. Rainbow Rocket and Classic Red in Masters also reinforce parallel dimensions existing.

The Entralink:


The Entralink is a space where players in-game (in Black and White) can travel to other players’ ‘worlds’, implying your save file is it’s own universe. Opalucid City changing its time depending on which version of Gen 5 you own reinforces this. Hell, trading has been described as sending a Pokemon through space and time or from another world. A popular way of gauging the meaning of this is adding millions of universes to the cosmology through how many copies of Pokemon have actually been sold, or at the very least, the Black and White copies.


The Reflection Cave:


The Reflection Cave from X and Y contains numerous mirrors blatantly linking to different universes, constantly leading to new caves with a new set of universes, potentially never-ending. Basically this reinforces the ‘innumerable’ dimensions statement from the games.


Ultra-space:


From Sun and Moon, Ultra Space is another dimension, but also a connection point to thousands of parallel worlds (it contains Ultra Wormholes that lead to them). It also connects to alternate timelines where the villains won. Meaning Ultra-Space acts as a gateway to the worlds and timelines.


TLDR - We know that there is an infinite universe and infinite timeline created by Dialga and Palkia, with a vast multiverse possibly made by them as well, as well as having some form of Many-Worlds Interpretation. Entralink may sound weird but if taking at face value it can justify scaling the Pokemon Universe number to the amount of copies of Black and White sold (15.64 Million), the amount of copies of all mainline games sold (349 Million), or every mainline and spin-off game (515+ Million). Yeah it’s a bit of a weird argument and even depends on what source you draw upon for game sales, but weird doesn’t mean invalid here since the proof exists.


5D Arguments:

 

So far, everything we've discussed is fairly straightforward. Pokemon possesses a universe with infinite space and time, innumerable parallel worlds with some funny save file arguments, alternate timelines, Ultra Space, the Distortion World, the Dream World, and several other realities that exist alongside the main universe. The real question is whether any of these structures qualify as higher-dimensional. 


The primary argument comes from places like Ultra Space, the Distortion World, and the mysterious realm occupied by Dialga and Palkia from Journeys (although in the movies they seem to just be regular dimensions). In Pokémon Platinum, Palkia is stated to reside within a gap in a spatial dimension parallel to our own. Meanwhile, the Distortion World exists independently of space and time altogether. Ultra Space connects countless worlds and timelines together. 


Whilst some interpret places like Ultra-Space as containing these worlds and timelines, note that Pokemon almost never explicitly calls these places higher dimensions. They're usually described as dimensions, worlds, realms, or alternate spaces. While they possess unusual properties compared to our universe, having weird physics does not automatically make something higher-dimensional. A universe without time like the Distortion World is still a universe unless the story specifically establishes otherwise…which it doesn’t. The same logic could be used to apply to Ultra-Space.

Basically, if Ultra Space genuinely encompasses and/or transcends the countless timelines and universes connected to it, then a 5D interpretation becomes much easier to justify. If it's simply a crossroads linking those realities together, then the argument becomes significantly weaker.

TLDR - It’s unquestionably multiversal and The Creation Trio should be able to scale to at least a chunk of it. Whether it reaches into higher-dimensional territory depends largely on how you interpret Ultra Space, the Distortion World, and the realms associated with Dialga and Palkia. The evidence exists. Whether it convinces you is another matter entirely.

Oh yeah Arceus got his own realm that Kyogre scales to… trust us…jokes aside we sadly are not done.


Hyperspace:


In Pokemon Legends ZA we’re introduced to a new dimension which is named “Hyperspace” by the Rust Syndicate. Throughout the story they discover that it’s a realm made up of the subconscious thoughts and memories of all people and Pokémon in Kalos. 


Later in the story we begin to see Hyperspace affect the real world as dimensional rifts are opened across Kalos and people/Pokémon are being forced in and out of random portals. Corbeau even states that Hyperspace could consume all of Kalos given time. Fast forward a little and you get the realization that everyone's favorite edgelord Darkrai is behind the existence of Hyperspace. Not only that but he is single handedly sustaining the entire alternate dimension on his own.


Naturally, this immediately sparked discussions about whether Pokémon's cosmology had just grown even larger. This not only gives Darkrai one of the strongest feats in all of Pokémon, but it also arguably pushes the verse to 6 Dimensional…right?

This leads to 2 questions: 1- Is this a valid upscale to the verse? And 2 - Can Kyogre scale?


  1. First off… maybe? This is a little complicated but the TLDR is that Hyperspace is seemingly smaller than an entire universe as it's literally just a copy of Kalos and a few important locations (Sky Pillar, Cave of Origin). It should be noted that it lacks flowing time, this…doesn’t prove or disprove anything really. That could mean it’s equal to our plane of reality but just lacks time, could be below, could be equal to us, could be above us, but there’s no blatant proof. While undeniably impressive, that makes it difficult to argue that Hyperspace automatically exists on a higher-dimensional level than Ultra Space or even the Distortion World, let alone the universe.

  2. Likely not even if you do somehow buy the verse being 6D. Darkrai explicitly cannot perform the Hyperspace feat in base form, nor in his mega form as sustaining Hyperspace nearly kills him by the end of the DLC. Darkrai was being amped by the years worth of mega energy stored inside of Prism Tower and that allowed him to create and sustain Hyperspace for around a month in universe, but the only Pokémon who could possibly scale are the top tiers like Arceus and 100% Zygarde (considering he's the one who destroyed the rampaging tower in the first place)


TLDR - Hyperspace is probably best viewed as an incredibly powerful feat for prep-time Mega Darkrai rather than definitive proof that the entire cosmology has suddenly jumped from 5D to 6D. THEN there’s evidence that it might just be a country sized pocket dimension at most.


Where the hell does Kyogre scale??? 

The topic of other, less iconic legendary scaling is kinda up in the air (cause Game Freak loves to give Mewtwo and Rayquaza all the love in the world). Thus, it’s something that has kinda been forgotten about. Because any legendary not named Mewtwo, Rayquaza, or even Giratina and Arceus will be dropped off and ignored. So we need to determine where Kyogre scales. Let's go over its various scaling chains and discuss the arguments of whether Kyogre scales:


Rayquaza/Deoxys:

One of the biggest questions surrounding Kyogre is just how closely it scales to Rayquaza. After all, Rayquaza's entire job description is breaking up Kyogre and Groudon's latest argument, and then leaving before anyone can thank him. At first glance, that might make it seem like Rayquaza completely outclasses the two. The actual evidence, however, is a little more complicated. 

Argument For: 


Pokémon Legends: Z-A may have provided an interesting explanation for why Rayquaza originally stopped the Primals. During one of the game's lore segments by Ansha, it's explained that a blinding light and whipping winds accompanied Rayquaza when it defeated Kyogre and Groudon, reverting them back to their normal forms by ‘robbing’ them and then whooping the 2 in Base. The wording is important here. Rayquaza's ability, Delta Stream (ZA states Ray had whipping winds), has never been shown reverting Primal forms by itself, suggesting that either Rayquaza possesses a specific method of suppressing Primal Reversion or that its intervention alongside the wishes of the Draconid Clan played a role. If either interpretation is correct, then Rayquaza's victories may not necessarily mean it completely overpowers the Primals through raw stats alone (emphasis on alone he’s still that dude).


Additionally, in the Mega Evolution Specials, both Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon are able to land significant hits on Mega Rayquaza, visibly damaging it during their battle and even forcing it into its Mega evolution. The Adventures manga also depicts Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza clashing directly and matching each other's attacks throughout much of the conflict. 


Argument Against:


Of course, there are counterarguments. The most obvious is that Rayquaza's entire narrative role is to resolve conflicts between Kyogre and Groudon. You could argue that Rayquaza is simply stronger than either of them individually, which would justify its repeated victories (it’s not really even repeated victories since it doesn’t happen often at all within each media). Hoopa and the Clash of Ages doesn't exactly help matters either, portraying Rayquaza as capable of holding its own against several legends which 'should' be above its paygrade like Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina 1v1. His Twister attack could also block an attack from Kyogre, Groudon, Kyreum, and the CT altogether, admittedly Ash’s Pikachu, as well as Mega Latios/Latias were on his side in beam clashes. If taken at face value, this would place Rayquaza comfortably above much of the legendary roster, including Kyogre…


…that said, none of these arguments really invalidate Kyogre's direct showings. At worst, it means Rayquaza may have certain advantages or narrative favoritism/satisfaction that make it effective against the Weather Trio. At best, they reinforce the idea that Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza are roughly even, with the exact gap between them depending largely on which interpretation you find most convincing. The Adventures manga in particular makes it very difficult to argue that Kyogre is massively below Rayquaza. If anything, it paints them as rivals with at worst a miniscule difference in power.


TLDR - Rayquaza is the mediator, but that doesn’t mean little bro cannot scale to big bro. Arguments against scaling aren’t too strong as the Hoopa movie is intended to be chaotic and doesn’t attempt at establishing a canon hierarchy. 

Oh yeah Deoxys scaling is more than valid too if you buy Ray scaling.


The Creation Trio:

Now we arrive at one of the most controversial parts of Pokémon scaling - whether x character can legitimately scale to the Creation Trio and other top-tier legendaries through Rayquaza.

The argument comes from a fairly simple chain. As discussed previously, Kyogre consistently keeps pace with Rayquaza across multiple continuities. The Adventures manga portrays them as near equals, the Mega Evolution Specials show Kyogre capable of damaging Mega Rayquaza, and even the modern games continue to present the Weather Trio as rivals rather than a hierarchy. If that scaling is accepted, then any feats performed by Rayquaza against other legendary Pokémon become relevant to Kyogre.

This is where Hoopa and the Clash of Ages sadly matters. Rayquaza, Pikachu, Latios, and Latias find themselves fighting a mind-controlled collection of legendary Pokémon including Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Kyurem, Groudon, Kyogre, and Hoopa Unbound. Rayquaza repeatedly holds its own throughout the conflict. While the Eon Duo and Pikachu certainly contribute helping beam clashes against the creation trio, the movie leaves little doubt that Rayquaza is the star of the show.

Some scenes make Rayquaza look like the strongest legendary, while others seem more interested in cool visuals than maintaining a consistent hierarchy. It's entirely possible that Rayquaza received a healthy dose of protagonist favoritism, since y’know, THEY MADE IT SHINY! Like how Mewtwo does in Team Rainbow Rockets hierarchy, especially considering how often Pokémon spin-offs treat it like the coolest thing to ever exist. Pokemon Conquest being a key example as the entire cast CONSTANTLY glazes Nobunaga for having a Rayquaza, even if they have Mewtwo/Groudon/Dialga ect. Lugia also beats up Hoopa Unbound, who may also scale to them.

There is another argument that is mostly just for ‘developer intent’ purposes. In Sword and Shield Crown Tundra Dynamax Adventures, all of the Gen 1-7 Box-Arts can be found here, implying that the developers likely consider them all within the same ballpark, but it’s acknowledged this is merely for reinforcement of the main arguments.

The biggest counterargument to all of this is also the most obvious. Dialga and Palkia have significantly more impressive concepts than Kyogre since they're directly tied to time and space itself, while Kyogre's domain is the oceans. If you prioritize lore over scaling, there's a reasonable argument that the Creation Trio should sit above the Weather Trio regardless of how us measly powerscalers interpret them. 

Darkrai:

In The Rise of Darkrai, the titular Darkrai finds himself caught between Dialga and Palkia as the pair begin tearing apart space-time around Alamos Town. While Darkrai is ultimately overpowered, it is capable of surviving attacks from both legends and briefly opposing them despite being dramatically outmatched. The Adventures manga is similar, treating Darkrai as going toe-to-toe with Mewtwo, and shielding itself from a 'dimension-ending' attack from the two.

Mystery Dungeon's portrayal of him as the mastermind behind Dialga's corruption could also gain him some scaling or downscaling to the creation trio. Kyogre obviously doesn't scale through Darkrai directly, but Darkrai isn’t exactly a box-art Legendary.

Of course, this argument isn't perfect. Surviving an attack from Dialga and Palkia isn't the same thing as matching them, and Darkrai is left severely weakened after the encounter. At best, it suggests some level of downscaling rather than outright equality.

Complete Zygarde & Ultra Necrozma:

However, scaling to the CT doesn't mean Kyogre automatically scales to every feat performed by every legendary. There are still clear outliers like Complete Zygarde, Ultra Necrozma, and especially Arceus, with nothing in recent material suggesting Kyogre is their equal. This isn't just us drawing a line either as unlike most box-art legendaries, they are treated as top-tier even among their peers. Complete Zygarde is portrayed as a last-resort force capable of suppressing threats beyond the scope of ordinary legendaries (you could even argue 50% = Xerneas and Yveltal, who would be on Rayquaza’s level, so 100% and Mega would be substantially higher in power). 

Ultra Necrozma, meanwhile, is depicted as on a completely different level, with the adventures manga portraying Ultra Necrozma as such an overwhelming threat that even powerhouses like Solgaleo and Complete Zygarde are unable to simply steamroll it, and thus if we assume all box-arts are equal, even the creation trio would be below it. You may argue that because the Gen 7 Avatars team could defeat it the scaling is there but that goes into too many assumptions about their team composition, level, hax etc. Base Necrozma may be more arguable, but it is still vague.

TLDR - The simplest conclusion is that Kyogre has arguments that it can reasonably scale to most major box-art legendaries through Rayquaza, but there is a ceiling and you may consider this a high-end depending on your interpretation.

Gardevoir, Gothitelle, Unown - Dimensional Threats?:

Box-Arts would be able to scale to most regular Pokemon no issue, but some like these guys have some context to get into:


For starters, Gardevoir in pokedex entries can create small black holes and distort dimensions. The pre-evolution Kirlia can also rip into dimensions, admittedly this one can be seen as hax, but it does reinforce the Gardevoir feats. Hell, in Pokken, we see Gardevoir creating a pocket dimension full of stars!


Starting with the Black Hole, it is officially stated that light cannot escape. The anime also reinforces it being a literal black hole (despite the fact it doesn’t warp space). Now, does this mean every Gardevoir casually has the attack potency of a black hole? Probably not, but Kyogre would still scale to the top Gardevoirs. Pokémon has a long history of using scientific terminology somewhat loosely, and the Pokedex is hardly a stranger to exaggeration. However, this specific statement...kinda hard to exaggerate what a black hole is. 


"Gardevoir throws a ball of psychic energy at her opponent, sending them into the air. They land in a portal that takes both the opponent and Gardevoir into space." is a statement from Pokken, as Gradevoir throws a black hole-like object before creating that pocket dimension stated above. Based off that it doesn’t seem like a black hole…but we don’t see it stated that the attack is the black hole, it just looks like one. The pokedex in both the games and anime also blatantly state they are ‘black holes’, how dare the anime not display Gardevoir rip apart the planet amirite? It’s a little tricky to misinterpret what a black hole is.


Then there’s the Pokken dimension feat. For one, we know Kirlia can rip into other dimensions, so dimensional hax isn’t new to the Ralts-line. Usually dimensional manipulation like this is valid no questions asked…so why the added context? Simple, it’s a psychic-type. When it comes to storms and dimension creation, there’s one key question to ask, do they sustain it themselves? Usually the answer is yes since typically it’s raw power-based, but stuff like objects can be trickier to justify direct scaling, and in this case, so can mental-based characters as there’s an argument to be made it’s more hax then actual power. The argument is made worse since the ‘dimension’ itself just looks like space, it could literally just be teleporting, hell we have no evidence Gardevoir even creates the area to begin with (apparently the files state it is space but I could not find the evidence, sorry).


…however, Mewtwo exists. Who in the same game creates a dimension. The same argument can be had here…but we see Mewtwo wave his hand and destroy it, making arguing AP scaling a lot simpler, so you can argue Gardevoir's feat is irrelevant here, still nice to have in case anyone uses this for their own scaling.


Next up, Gothitelles pokedex entry and her ‘folding space from thousands of light years away’. Sounds pretty powerful…but people have overestimated these statements a lot. Here’s the English pokedex entry - “Starry skies thousands of light-years away are visible in the space distorted by their intense psychic power”. This has been interpreted to mean they can distort space to an up-to Galaxy level degree! Ignoring the fact Gothitelle could just be showing a window into this, or just distorting a small portion of the area to show them. Hell, other dex entries state Gothitelle has seen the end of existence and can show someone the end of the universe, sometimes hax is just hax. The Japanese translation implies that she is only showing a vision (or ‘image’) of stars that are thousands of light years away and not folding space or something similar. Less breaking a wall down and more opening a window. The anime actually makes things a bit more complicated, as in the episode ‘The Lost World of Gothitelle!’ Ash’s pokedex entry is just that of the games, and we get to see it in action, with Gothitelle creating a world ‘from its memories’ and sending the main trio to it. A very silly argument made is that it creates stars…errrr, look again sweety, it only goes night during a flashback, nothing to do with the feat. Still, creating a world is impressive, but it seemingly only encompasses the bridge and surrounding area as we see during the episode's climax. 


TLDR - Gothitelle is sadly inapplicable here (and yes I’m aware I used it for my Mewtwo VS Shadow video, live and learn), and Gardevoir's Pokken move is tricky to argue. However, black hole scaling is blatant and can be used for Legendaries.


Finally, we need to talk about Unown. These little guys are able to “Create a new reality” by looking at the thoughts of other beings. This is far more blatant than the Gothitelle examples, but there is a bit of difficulty in scaling this to Kyogre as this is simply an ability Unown have due to their psychic powers, but they still translate dreams into physical reality, so your mileage may vary here. However, if you do take this as applicable then that would give more validity to the reality-based feats in the franchise being scalable.

However, there is 1 caveat to this and it’s due to the scale of their reality warping. The events of Pokémon movie 3 take place over half a week or so in universe, and they’re seemingly only able to warp reality by charging power constantly throughout that week, and even by the finale they hadn’t even taken over all of Kanto with their crystal formations. This would imply that even if they *could* create a new world, whether it be the size of a solar system or universe, it would take weeks, if not months to perform which brings the actual scaling into question. 

Kyreum and The Dream World:

Doesn’t seem too crucial does it? The feat is simple, in the manga, Kyreum fires a beam, it pierces into the Dream World from the real-world. Piercing into another dimension is obviously impressive, but feats like this are odd to apply to scaling. There’s a couple ways to interpret this feat. The safest way to interpret feats like this is that it simply has, how do we put this, ‘dimensional range’, akin to opening a portal or simply being able to attack into other dimensions as hax.

Then there’s taking it literally that Kyreum breached the boundary between dimensions, but this is nowhere near the same as Universal attack potency, you ain’t destroying a house by opening a door, it’s more of an interaction then anything. While some may attempt to argue infinite or even immeasurable Speed from this, the feat itself doesn't demonstrate movement across infinite distance or through time, making that harder to justify. Regardless, it shows Kyreum is able to ‘interact’ with non-3D reality, but isn’t the greatest scaling argument.


Giratina’s Rift and the Possibility of Multiple Creation Trio’s:

If you don’t support Kyogre scaling to the Trio even as a high-end, you may want to skip ahead. Regardless, this is still an interesting point.

You may think the answer to how many Dialgas or Palkias is obvious, after all, if Pokémon contains innumerable universes and timelines, then surely there must be a separate Creation Trio for each one, right? After all, somebody has to be maintaining all that reality. The problem is that the lore never gives us a straight answer, and the implications massively affect how you will interpret scaling. 

Arguments For Singular:

The strongest evidence for a singular Creation Trio (and thus them scaling to the multiverse) comes from the lore itself, as Arceus is consistently described as creating Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, not an endless army of them. Also, there was legit nothing before Arceus appeared and made them, so a singular trio would make sense if the multiverse was made from nothing. Legends: Arceus treats the trio as unique entities rather than an innumerable amount (this is also the game where the innumerable statement comes from). Even more interestingly, Giratina's Rift in Legends: Arceus is shown affecting multiple dimensions and timelines simultaneously, yet only one set of Creation Trio members ever becomes relevant to the plot. If there were truly countless Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina roaming the multiverse, you'd expect at least one of them to show up when reality starts breaking. 

There's also the matter of Palkia's own lore. Multiple sources credit it with creating or governing MULTIPLE dimensions and universes. If those statements are taken literally, then a single Palkia is already responsible for far more than one universe. Meaning the trio may just exist above reality, using avatars to interact with reality while their true forms remain elsewhere, or the idea of there being multiple in 'true canon' is bunk. 

Arguments for Multiple:

The biggest argument against this comes from your save files themselves. Every save file is effectively treated as its own space-time, and players can capture Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina across multiple continuities. Team Rainbow Rocket further complicates matters by introducing alternate versions of Cyrus, who has already captured members of the trio. Then there's the Sinjoh Ruins event, where Arceus casually creates a brand-new member of the Creation Trio despite the universe already functioning perfectly fine without it...? 

BUT! The Sinjoh Ruins event could simply be Arceus demonstrating its power to create life rather than proving multiple trios are required for reality to function. Likewise, Team Rainbow Rocket's existence may simply demonstrate that the same legendary can appear at different points in time or through alternate timelines rather than proving there are infinite copies running around, after all we are dealing with the masters of infinite time and space, who can travel to any point at will. Hell, after Rainbow Rocket you can catch your own Trio member via Ultra-Space, which again links to not just dimensions, but timelines too.

TLDR - Multiple Creation Trios makes sense if every universe requires its own gods of time and space. A singular Creation Trio makes more sense if Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina exist above the multiverse and merely project avatars into individual realities, which given our cosmology explanation and what Legends Arceus shows us may be true. Hell Palkia’s dex entry implies just an avatar sustains multiple dimensions. Pokémon never fully commits to either explanation and I want to die. I have spent an hour contemplating this. And if you're looking for an official answer from Game Freak, good luck. We're not entirely convinced they know either and thus how you interpret their lore and feats...really is on you and not some dumb VS Blog. 

Giratina’s Rift:

SO! With that out of the way, I mentioned Giratina’s rift before, a high-meta for scaling the Legendaries - the giant space-time rift hanging over Hisui for most of the game. According to the story, the rift was created through Giratina, with the goal of throwing Dialga and Palkia into conflict and forcing Arceus to intervene.

Seems straightforward right? The rift is destabilizing space and time, and reality is slowly falling apart. The problem is figuring out exactly how much reality we're talking about. Depending on the translation, Cogita either refers to 'innumerable' universes being affected or 'several' dimensions becoming intertwined. Still, both versions agree on one important detail - the rift extends beyond a single universe. We also know that it is connected to Dialga’s dimension.

The player is pulled into Hisui from another point in time, while the character Ingo is dragged from an entirely different era as well. The rift repeatedly demonstrates the ability to bridge separate timelines and realities, which is important given Pokémon's love of parallel worlds and alternate timelines throughout the franchise.

That said, there's a difference between affecting multiple universes and destroying an infinite multiverse. The former is strongly supported by the game's events, but the latter depends heavily on how you interpret Cogita's statements, and whether you believe the rift would have eventually spread across the entirety of the cosmology.

TLDR - Giratina's Rift is very clearly affecting more than a single universe. It's just that pinning down a number becomes difficult. It could be a case that it would eventually spread to every timeline since it is directly connected to Dialga’s realm.

Solgaleo and Pokemon Speed Arguments:

There are a surprising number of feats from this franchise that require a lot of evaluation, so let’s talk speed now:

Ultra-Space Travel:

Assuming the previous Rayquaza scaling is accepted, there isn't much reason to not scale Kyogre to mons like Solgaleo and Lunala. Both are consistently portrayed below Ultra Necrozma and the likes of 100% Zygarde. More importantly, Solgaleo and Lunala possess an important speed feat - traveling through Ultra Space. 

Ultra Space is a vast network of wormholes to worlds and realities separated by large distances. Throughout the games, anime, etc, Solgaleo and Lunala are shown crossing these distances in relatively short timeframes. Even conservative interpretations place these journeys at thousands of light-years traversed within minutes, resulting in speeds billions of times faster than light. Whilst an Infinite Ultra-Space argument exists, we blatantly see the max distance they have travelled.

Solgaleo Lights up the Planet…or Universe?

Then there's Solgaleo's Pokédex entries, which describe it as capable of "lighting up the world." Normally, statements like this are fairly easy to dismiss as referring to a planet. The issue is that Solgaleo's lore associates it with other worlds and dimensions (Ultra-Space), it literally travels throughout the multiverse with you in USUM. Multiple Pokedex entries describe Solgaleo as originating from another world, explicitly referring to Ultra Space, while others state that its Ultra Wormholes can bring life and energy from other worlds into our own. Its Shield Pokédex entry even states that light radiates from it "boundlessly".

Solgaleo can also fuse with Necrozma, who can absorb and restore light across multiple worlds connected through Ultra Space. Scaling to Necrozma is not applicable to Kyogre, but this does reinforce the Solgaleo interpretation.

That being said, nothing outright states that Solgaleo can illuminate an entire universe, and the safer reading is still that "world" may simply refer to a planet. However, with Solgaleo's lore, and the franchise's repeated use of "world" to describe alternate realities, the universe interpretation isn't bad. So TLDR, Multi-Solar System Solgaleo is arguable for scaling.

Ultra Necrozma’s Defeat:

After Ultra Necrozma’s defeat in US/UM, Solgaleo/Lunala return to normal, and then restore the stolen light from the main world from Megaopolis, a feat calculated in the early Billion X FTL range! But is it actually a speed feat? We’ll use the sun version, where Solgaleo basically just taps the light with its nose before it floats into the air, and we cut to the main world where the light is restored.

The math isn’t terrible, the light returns after being tapped a small distance. But what is Solgaleo actually doing? If he just propels it back to Alola, then making this a valid speed feat becomes more likely…at least for projectile speed, since the light doesn’t move until Solgaleo interacts with it.

There is also the argument that Solgaleo does this via an ability, simply releasing the stolen light. He may send it a small distance and then release it. Even then we have to consider the fact Solgaleo is able to travel through Ultra-Space, meaning it could just be sent through a portal of sorts. Hell, dex entries state that its Ultra Wormholes can bring life and energy from other worlds into our own.

Point is, I’d hesitate calling this a major speed feat without giving it some thought, quite similar to Kyurem's attack.

Pokepark My Beloved:

One of the highest speed-metas for Pokémon comes from Pokepark of all things (PART 3 OR REMAKES PLEASE).

In the second entry, Darkrai accidentally creates the Dark Vortex while attempting to merge PokéPark and Wish Park, with the vortex eventually threatening both worlds. Despite the pull of the Vortex dragging nearby Pokémon toward it, Darkrai is able to travel directly against it without issue, literally standing still whilst everyone is getting sucked in prior, reaching its epicenter before the vortex can consume the others and ultimately sacrificing itself to save both worlds - a feat quadrillions times faster then light if we account for what the vortex is doing! 

With that said, the Dark Vortex may not be a literal black hole, and more just a universe-destroying force, leading some to argue that Darkrai's success is partially due to its connection to the vortex itself/a resistance. However, this is still an assumption, and Darkrai is still visibly shown moving against the Vortex's pull while other Pokémon are being dragged toward it, giving the feat a much stronger basis as a raw speed showing alongside the properties of it being a black hole.

Dialga’s Time Travel:

As we all know, Dialga controls the concept of time, and in certain games, it is stated it can travel through time ‘at will’, sounds like you’d need to break the speed equation to carry out such a feat…right?


Well...maybe not. The argument for immeasurable speed is fairly straightforward. If Dialga can physically travel to the past or future whenever it pleases, without relying on portals or external factors, then it would be moving independently of linear time, something akin to immeasurable speeds.


The issue is, of course, that the franchise presents Dialga’s dimensional travel as an ability rather than via pure speed. Similarly even if Dialga can move during stopped time that doesn’t inherently imply speed. If that were the case then DIO and Guldo are both Immeasurable due to moving during stopped time which just isn’t right.


Dialga arguably has infinite speed as he and Palkia seemingly created time and space in an infinite universe, possibly multiple, however assuming his time travel is done via pure speed when it’s just as likely a hax ability feels like too far of an assumption. 


Dialga and Palkia move with their Dimensions:


No. This is one that other blogs have brought up that upon knowing the context isn’t exactly applicable. In the Gen 4 Movies, Dialga and Palkia clash, believing the other to be invading their territory. In actuality, Arceus’ rage during its slumber pushes the dimension of space, and the dimension of time together. So yeah, not even applicable for Dialga/Palkia, if my house got moved into mars it doesn’t mean I’m Relativistic.


Sonic Cosmology:

The Universe and Multiverse:


Another trickier than expected cosmology to decipher. Let's start simple. In terms of Universal feats, there's actually very little reason to assume Sonic's base universe is infinite in size, meaning Universal feats don't automatically become Infinite Speed feats. While locations such as White Space or the Dimension of Time have arguments for being infinite, the ordinary Sonic universe itself doesn't really have statements supporting that. 


There’s also the matter of Sonic Prime, we dive more into this during its own BTV segment, but there’s an argument to be had that the Universe may be 6 or so times the size of our own due to interpretations surrounding the Paradox Prisms mechanisms, with the Sonic universe needing to be larger than our own if we believe the Prism physically fragmented reality to house multiple space-times (Debatable).


Then there’s the wider multiverse. There’s a very strong argument to be made that it is infinite in scope due to the Tailstube video linked, where Tails explains that time is just a single dimension of reality within the ‘endless possibilities of space’, noting that there ‘could’ be an ‘infinite’ number of Sonics out there! Of course endless does not mean infinite, but it certainly reinforces the multiverse being vast and a lot larger than a small finite value. Tails stating there could be infinite Sonics does improve the infinite multiverse argument a lot, but it is still theoretical. The segment is basically babies first multiverse where Tails speaks informally rather than give a genuine scientific lecture. Basically, he’s sure there’s an endless amount of universes, just uncertain on if there would be infinite Sonics, but his wording still implies an infinite, or at least endless, multiverse.


Maginaryworld:


Maginaryworld from Sonic Shuffle is where things…suck, so let’s break this down. Whether or not this is a planet or universe is a little vague, but universe seems to be the more likely option. 


Basically, Maginaryworld contains all dreams in reality, we’ll get into what that means later, but in terms of cosmology, we need to establish what dreams are. Stages in shuffle are good examples of what they look like, showcasing they have a day/night cycle and can contain vast amounts of stars. Outside of Shuffle, we see that dreams in Sonic can take place in Space too, where stars naturally shine. So, at minimum Maginaryworld contains innumerable Multi-Solar System to Galaxy-level structures. 


However, Ian Flynn states that dreams in Sonic could be Universe-sized and aren’t limited by their size, meaning Maginaryworld may just be a mini multiverse. It also contains a stage called 4th-Dimension Space, being shaped like a Tesseract as well, plus being described as infinite. It may be interpreted as Maginaryworlds timeline, a valid assumption…however given we know each dream has its own day/night cycle, this may not be the case. We go more into it later, but 4th dimensional space is seen as an encompassing higher-plane over places that may already be 4th dimensional at maximum interpretation, making Maginaryworld 5D at best, and 4D at worst. Just, remember, dreams are themselves conceptual like what time is, so arguing that 4th dimensional space is the timeline may not be the best argument, but with that said, it also means the idea of dreams having their own 4th dimensional timeline is also up in the air. 


TLDR - It’s a Structure with pocket dimensions at worst, universes at best, encompassed by a ‘4th dimensional’ place. It sucks, I know.


The Exception:


The Exception is a ‘space between dimensions’, more of a crossroads than your average universe. This is where Eggman states he’ll build an Eggmanland that transcends all dimensions (no Goji-Chronic this statement alone does not make base cast 5D as this isn’t a feat). As mentioned with Ultra-Space for Pokémon, this could be seen as a dimensional gateway of sorts, but given how you interpret Eggman’s words and believe it encompasses the worlds it links, it could be seen as 4th or 5th dimensional.


Cyber-Space:


This one’s also odd. It may seem like just another Universe, but there is an argument to be had it’s more than that. Created by The Ancients using the power of the Emeralds, Cyber-Space is a bit weird. It essentially manifests memories, hopes and dreams into the 3D space, explaining why Sonic visits replicas of Green Hill. The Dream aspect is interesting, as if this is taken literally, the similarities to Maginaryworld are undoubtedly there, where we’d essentially get another mini-multiverse at best. The difference is the evidence. Unlike Maginaryworld, we never actually observe these dreams containing stars, their own timelines or independent universes. Because of that, while Cyber Space may support another mini-multiverse interpretation, the evidence simply isn't as strong. 

White Space:


White Space is the central hub in Sonic x Shadow Generations that remains after the Time Eater destroys all of space-time. It is described as a realm between dimensions that holds the universe together, acting as a hub between timelines and those that have even been erased, containing doorways to areas from the past and the future. The timelines and dimensions are still there, they just exist within white space. The Shadow Generations manga also describes it as ‘inter-dimensional’. This is reinforced a lot. As such, an argument can be made that White Space transcends the cosmology thus far, encompassing it. The fact it still exists after Time Eaters timeline erasure suggests that, especially since it did so within the base universes. Hell this also implies it was not created by Time Eater either, it was already encompassing reality. Interestingly, Ian Flynn describes White Space as ‘aspatial and atemporal’. Basically, unrelated to space-time. All of this gives us a strong argument for White Space encompassing at least the main Universe and timeline, making it 5D at minimum, with arguments for 6D depending on your Maginaryworld stance.


The Dimension of Time:


Also from Generations, Eggman describes this as Time Eater’s home. It also contains the tunnel of time which Time Eater can fly out of, described as an infinite tunnel dimension and stream, with the same page stating debris from other dimensions is present here. The 3DS version of the game also shows some form of starry structure, what appears to be a universe, visible from the dimension.


Whether the Dimension of Time simply exists alongside White Space or actually transcends it is unclear, but at the very least it's another realm that transcends the main universes.


Null Space:


From Sonic Forces, the Phantom Ruby Prototype sends Sonic and The Avatar there. We know it is sealed off from other dimensions. There’s an argument to be had this includes White Space and the Dimension of Time, some arguing it makes it further transcendent.


However, we see during the final boss fight a dimension filled with a starry sky, implying it cosmologically speaking, is a regular pocket dimension, hell an argument exists that since the ruby plays a factor here, it may not exist within the cosmology without it and is moot for scaling to the likes of Solaris.


Solaris’ Dimension/The Ends:


Now, we don’t know where Solaris comes from, other than the fact it is higher-dimensional and exists at all points in time, alongside its blatant feats of consuming timelines and dimensions, so an argument can be made Solaris is from a dimension beyond what is known, it is superdimensional after all. Whether or not super forms can scale to this dimension is a little tricky to say, since we don’t know if it sustains it, or is simply a resident. The same can apply to The End's possible home-realm.


Conclusion:


So where does all of that leave Sonic? Comfortably, the series supports a vast multiverse with genuine arguments for it being infinite in scope. Beyond that, however, everything becomes increasingly scaler-dependent and terrible to explain.

You can stop around Multiversal+, treating White Space, Maginaryworld and the Dimension of Time as unusual but ultimately comparable higher realms. If you’re willing to take Maginaryworld's structure, White Space's aspatial nature and The Exception's dimensional statements more literally can reasonably argue for 5D.

And if you begin stacking the higher White Space interpretation you eventually arrive at 6D and beyond including Solaris’ home, but scaling it to said home is iffy.


Chaos - What does it resist?


Doesn’t sound too important, does it? A lot of resistances are debatable in Versus Debates, but for this specific matchup it’s very important to evaluate what Chaos and the Emeralds can resist. We listed 6 before, with ALL of them being debatable:


Extreme Cold:


The vacuum of space/extreme cold is something most of the Sonic cast can just casually survive no issue. The vacuum of space and resistance to extreme cold are often lumped together, but Chaos may actually be the exception that proves the rule. During the Chaos 6 fight he's completely immobilized after being frozen by Sonic, suggesting that surviving in space doesn't automatically grant immunity to cryogenic attacks. It'd feel pretty disingenuous to simply assume the freezing bombs are colder than the vacuum of space, so we'd rather treat these as two separate resistances. 

Limited Space-Time Manipulation:


Basically in Sonic Battle, Shadow has several abilities like Chaos Nightmare, Chaos Burst, Chaos Magic, and Roaming Chaos that are stated to distort space, or space-time…somehow (Death Battle brought it up in Metal VS Cell’s conclusion). The argument being if you can survive getting hit by them, there’s your resistance, and since in canon Chaos fought Emerl who can copy said abilities…the issue is that the descriptions for these attacks imply he distorts reality, yes, but does so in the form of an attack, it’s not really hax at all. Besides, if it were a full resistance then I guess chaos control can be tanked by everyone.


Status Effects:


In IDW, Sonic is affected with the Metal Virus, a disease that is slowly turning him into a mindless Metal Zombie. The only thing saving him is running, until he gets his hand on the 7 Chaos Emeralds, where he goes Super and shrugs off the Virus as if it were not present to begin with. This implies that, alongside the invincibility of most Super Forms, regular status effects can just be brushed off.


The debatable aspect is simply the fact that Chaos’ super form isn’t really a traditional one, it absorbs the negative power of the emeralds but isn’t a form that uses their ‘full’ power.


Mind Control:


The Emeralds have showcased the clear ability to shield the user from forms of mind control. The issue is that this comes from Dark Brotherhood, y'know, the non-canon one. That being said…we are giving Chaos Sonic X as supporting evidence, as well as doing the usual Game/Anime/Manga soft-comp for Kyogre, so using Brotherhood by our own logic is acceptable.


Memory Alteration:


Kinda the same thing but also…not really? After Eggman wipes everyone's memories, seven of the characters who each held a single Chaos Emerald were able to retain some of their memories, and all 7 Emeralds together granted Sonic a full blown (its not outright stated but its heavily implied as the memory manipulation becomes a non-issue after he has all 7 of them on hand) resistance to the memory manipulating effects of the Egg Field and Lightman. It's not identical to resisting mind control, but it certainly shows the Emeralds provide a protection against mental interference.


You could argue this extends to hax such as hypnosis or possession but they’re not QUITE the same thing, basically the emeralds don’t just let mental interference happen.


Power/Energy Drainage:


The Chaos Emeralds can be drained of their power, we literally see Chaos do this in Adventure 1’s climax. But, they can be recharged through positive emotions too. The debatable part is if negative emotions can also do this, it’s theoretically possible yeah but until we see it, we can’t say for certain it’s possible.


With that said…we are allowing Sonic X. Where the emeralds negate Dark Oaks energy drainage...at least that’s what other blogs claim, In reality, the Chaos Emeralds are restored (they were drained like in the original game) after resonating with the Planet Eggs inside Final Mova, simultaneously halting Dark Oak's life-draining energy waves. While this demonstrates that drained Chaos Emeralds can rapidly recover their power from an external energy source, it doesn't imply an actual resistance to energy drainage given they were dead already.


TLDR - Look Chaos’ resistances are iffy, but we have to examine them due to Kyogre’s hax matching pretty well with a lot of these debatable resistances.


Chaos in Forces:


Before getting into the scaling chains properly, we need to address the GIANT Elephant in the room - Sonic Forces.


The Phantom Ruby Clones are…barely even of importance. The clones of Shadow, Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos 0 don’t really do anything. They’ll be there for maybe a fight or two and then disappear. It’s only until the very end of the game that they even really do anything, and even then, they still get their ass beat. Still, there’s unfortunately a scaling argument to be made here, so let’s dive in. 


For one thing, the Phantom Ruby Clones of Chaos are only shown to be Chaos 0, the weakest form of Chaos. Meaning this Chaos is supposed to be much weaker than Perfect Chaos or even Chaos's other forms like Chaos 1 and 2. At the beginning of Sonic Forces, we see Infinite summon his Phantom Ruby, including, of course, Chaos 0, and all of them proceed to give Sonic the hands. While they didn’t kill Sonic, they knocked him unconscious, and we see Chaos holding Sonic back and doing effective damage to him. He may not have been alone, but he still contributed a lot.


So is there a problem with this? Unfortunately, the problem here comes down to Sonic Forces’ ending, as we see multiple clones fight just random Sonic NPCs or characters that definitely do (or should) not scale as high as other characters like Shadow or Sonic like Amy or Charmy. Shadow says that the Phantom Ruby Clones are as strong as the originals, and thus Chaos 0 clones are just as formidable as Adventure and Sonic Battle Chaos. To be fair, a lot of them seemingly have weapons, so it isn’t physical comparability for a lot of the NPCs.


This also means that Forces’ Ending implies that the entire Sonic Cast is somewhat comparable to each other, as you have Charmie Bee and Chaos 0 being put next to Silver and Shadow. Meaning they all scale to feats like Eggman's Black Hole, The Final Egg Blaster and possibly even Void. Worst of all is that it would give us another argument for Chaos 0 scaling to Perfect Chaos. There’s no real reason to say Shadow was lying, but it’s weird to just assume he’s wrong. Whether or not this is valid scaling is entirely up to the reader.


That being said, take a look at the Sonic Forces prequel comic, where in Issue 2 Chaos 0’s clone harms and knocks down Knuckles and Silver, which would reinforce Chaos 0 scaling to the base cast fully at least. And no we will not be using any website fluff statements to argue Infinite = Solaris and thus everyone is multi, we’ve gone over that before. However, this is from the original ruby, not the prototype, so the equalization to the real Chaos 0 could be irrelevant here.


TLDR - If Shadow is correct that the Phantom Ruby clones perfectly replicate the originals, then Chaos 0 comfortably scales to much of the modern base cast. The issue is that accepting this also means accepting some very questionable implications elsewhere in Forces, where minor characters begin fighting those same clones. Whether you interpret that as valid scaling is ultimately up to you, but either way, Forces provides one of the strongest modern arguments for Chaos 0 scaling far above his Adventure-era portrayal. 


Where the hell does Chaos scale???


Chaos is infamous in the VS community because of the headache, that is, where does he actually scale? Similar to Kyogre, Chaos doesn’t exactly have a lot of appearances, and because of that, it doesn’t exactly have clear scaling to some of the big threats in Sonic. However, he does have a lot of arguments to actually get up there. It should be noted there isn’t one consistent chain, there’s several actually with their own strengths and weaknesses. We’ll focus on them in order of controversy:


Modern Sonic:


The easiest place to start is Modern Base Sonic. Chaos scales pretty handedly to base Classic/Adventure Era Sonic, whether it be by keeping pace with the cast in fights, or Perfect Chaos requiring Adventure Super Sonic to defeat. One important detail about Sonic is that he gets slightly stronger over time, which makes enough sense, hence why splitting the Sonics into different eras is needed.


In Sonic Generations, Modern Sonic fights Perfect Chaos at Station Square at the same point in time as Adventure 1. This moment is proof to us that Sonic’s Strength is growing the more adventures he goes on, since he somehow bests Chaos.


That being said though, it also could imply that Adventure Perfect Chaos is still in the same ballpark as Generations Modern Sonic. While Sonic does beat Perfect Chaos, he doesn’t go down without a fight and can still deal damage and hurt you, this implies that Perfect Chaos can still somewhat be similar in strength to Modern Base Sonic. Remember, Perfect Chaos isn’t weaker than he was in Adventure 1 here.


Additionally, in Otherworldy Comedy, Lightman (Eggman) creates several Perfect Chaos clones with his Modified Phantom Ruby, and the narration of the battle outright says that if Sonic hadn’t been in his Super form, "he would have vanished." had Perfect Chaos’ attacks hit him.


So all in all, Perfect Chaos scaling to base Modern Sonic, and friends/foes equal to Base Modern Sonic, is pretty solid based off this alone, even if you want to say he downscales he can still keep up, but we still have another argument to get towards:


An argument against the Sonic Generations example is that Chaos in that fight never lands a hit on Sonic unless the player walks into his attacks, and even when Sonic is tossed away after hitting Chaos, that's because of his momentum bouncing him off of Chaos’ body. This would imply that the only actual scalable aspect of Chaos to Generations Sonic is his durability, and possibly reaction speed.


Otherworldly Comedy would also imply that Perfect Chaos is on par with Sonic, however context matters as this is an amped Chaos with Eggman having full control of the entire world. Later in the fight Sonic even blatantly states that the Chaos clones are not the real being, and are just energy made by Eggman So saying “Adventure era Perfect Chaos would've obliterated base sonic” is incredibly generous to say the least. 



Emerl and The Final Egg Blaster:


This is one that’s pretty accepted for the base Sonic cast nowadays but we’re aware that some people may be VERY picky about using Modern Sonic, Forces, Void (more on them later) etc so we gotta look at every avenue to find a peak for Base/Perfect Chaos. In Sonic Battle, Eggman's Death Egg destroys at least 3 stars (it is not stated to be a constellation). By itself, the feat isn't particularly useful as Destroying three stars sounds impressive, but without someone actually scaling to it, it's just another feat. Thankfully Gerald Robotnik's creation Emerl gives us an avenue to scale fighters like Chaos to its potency. Emerl literally just absorbs the Machine, and other base-level fighters can beat him up, like when Sonic caused him to become too weak to function after absorbing it. It's really as simple as that. Sonic even went on to defeat Gemerl, reinforcing the scaling. Chaos in Battle appears as an optional boss fight where he loses to Emerl before the blaster is absorbed, but losing doesn’t mean scaling is invalid, especially from a gameplay perspective where it can be framed as a stomp due to player skill, whilst also being framed as close by the same logic. It should also be noted that Battle takes place after Shadow 05 in the timeline, not too detached from Adventure 1 and Shuffle.


And in case anyone’s wondering, Eggman doesn’t actually utilize the Emeralds here, it’s just the Death Egg. Emerl however, does possess the emeralds. So does this mean base-level fighters scale to Solaris now? Not exactly, they act more-like batteries as opposed to giving Emerl super-form power or anything like that, and restore functions such as speech, as well as grant him abilities.


Speed is the iffy part, Emerl absorbs the energy no issue, but doesn’t react to it. There’s an argument to be had that someone utilizing chaos energy like Super Sonic would scale to or above it, and if we believe Perfect Chaos can scale to Adventure Sonic there really shouldn’t be an issue, so it really does depend on the scaler here as it’s a bit Sun-Disky, but it’s debatably valid. Regardless, if you don’t love the Generations, or even Forces argument, this is pretty solid proof of base cast scaling.


Classic Super Sonic/Time Eater:


So we've established two fairly solid Base Sonic chains, but what if you want to push Chaos even higher? That's where Classic Sonic, and unfortunately, Sonic continuity, starts causing problems. Chaos would of course scale to Base Classic Sonic, but when it comes to Classic Sonic scaling, you have 2 minor issues to deal with. The issue of Sonic Forces, and most importantly, Sonic Generations. 


First, in Sonic Forces, you fight Chaos 0 as Classic Sonic…wait never mind its cutscene only, for some reason. Anyways, this same Sonic later throws hands with Infinite and Zavok. Meaning he’d immediately get scaling to them, and then go back and fight Perfect Chaos during the events of Sonic Adventure. If Classic were still simply Sonic's younger self, this would create a neat line from Chaos to Infinite and the other base form clones almost by accident. .


This extends to Generations as Classic Super Sonic fights the Time Eater and then seemingly goes on to fight Perfect Chaos in super as well…Unfortunately, Forces also retconned Classic Sonic into an alternate-universe counterpart, immediately throwing that scaling chain into question. 


It's a classic paradox and ends up becoming a headache. There are reasons to assume it's valid scaling, as mentioned above modern Super Sonic is still required for clones of Perfect Chaos. However, it is worth questioning the validity when it comes to comparing Perfect Chaos to Time Eater.


Another argument against this is that Perfect Chaos had to instantly regenerate from Adventure Super Sonics attacks from big droplets of water, so it didn’t really tank anything.


TLDR - Scaling Perfect Chaos to Time Eater based on Classic Super Sonic is messy, but arguable. 

Adventure Super Sonic:


Before we even begin talking about any of Super Sonic's later feats, we need to establish whether Perfect Chaos even fully scales to Adventure Super Sonic in the first place.

The ending of Adventure 1 isn't a simple case of ‘Sonic punched harder’. It’s stated that Sonic is wielding the true, positive power of the Chaos Emeralds, while Chaos himself had absorbed only their negative energy. Rather than simply overpowering Chaos, Sonic calms his rage and neutralises him, returning him to his original peaceful state, positive chaos energy cancelling out the negative, so scaling becomes much less straightforward. Not to mention, when Sonic hits Chaos, he turns into giant water droplets, only staying in the fight due to regeneration.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean Chaos is massively weaker. Perfect Chaos still clashes directly with Super Sonic throughout the battle, doesn’t go down immediately, and draws power from the exact same Emeralds Sonic is using, since the positive energy is stated to be the true power, rather than a more powerful one, the ending suggests they're utilising different aspects of the same source rather than existing on completely different tiers of power. Not to mention neutralisation isn’t really something to do with power depending on your angle.


Modern Super Sonic:

Through the Classic Sonic and Generations arguments discussed earlier, Perfect Chaos can potentially downscale to later Super Sonic feats, opening the door to scaling chains involving Time Eater, and eventually Solaris. Death Battle themselves have even suggested threats like Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord remain broadly comparable to Time Eater in Metal VS Cell via Classic Super Sonic scaling to Time Eater.

The problem is that Sonic clearly doesn't remain static in AP throughout the series. Modern Super Sonic has fought increasingly greater threats over the years, culminating in opponents like Solaris, whose feats far exceed anything seen during the Dreamcast era. 

Solaris is probably the biggest leap in the chain, but it ain’t impossible to argue since Sonic 06 isn't particularly far removed from Adventure chronologically, and it still required three Super Hedgehogs to bring Solaris down. However, Solaris' feats of threatening the entire Sonic cosmology are on a completely different level to anything Chaos was ever directly associated with. Accepting this chain means assuming Sonic's gradual growth never became so significant that Perfect Chaos completely fell behind. Some will buy that. Others won't.

TLDR - Everything is arguable…somehow, even if it is downscaling.

Misc Sonic villains:

Master Core ABIS & Babylon Guardian:

Another unexplored avenue is the Sonic Riders games. Because for some reason their Final Bosses are some of the strongest base-level bosses in Sonic. Master Core: ABIS from Zero Gravity is up first, and they make a black hole! Nothing new to the series and wouldn’t be worth a section here on its own. The interesting part here is if you look harder at said black hole…yep, those are galaxies that it’s spinning and seemingly being pulled by/towards the singularity. And you could say that’s just the background they’re on and not the hole itself, but if that were the case they wouldn’t be moving whilst the cast is stationary. The implication being that ABIS is moving said galaxies, and yeah the cast blatantly beat it fair and square. At the very least it’s still a big black hole. So, needless to say this isn’t a hard meta to argue for even Chaos 0. 


That being said, an argument can be made that the galaxies we see are not part of the Black Hole, or if they are, aren’t controlled by ABIS, especially given what we know about the holes potency in lore. Hell, the speed of the calc may not even be scalable to anyone given it’s purely the speed of a black hole spinning something. Point is, it could just be visual flare. Pick your poison.


Then we get to the villain of Game 1, The Babylon Guardian, who warped the Digital Dimension, which we can interpret is infinite through guidebooks: ‘The Babylon Rogues finally set foot in the treasure room of the Babylon palace. In that place, the world extends to infinite nothingness...while feeling this, suddenly someone's shout resounds.’ which we know was made by the Guardian ‘The statues lined up in this strange dimension-world inspire thoughts of hell. As for that, this world is a fiction created by the guardian of the treasure to thwart intruders.’ Hell read the course overview after beating it ‘The world after defeating the Babylon Guardian. From the start, the guardian controlled the mechanical space; setting up the world to become interchangeable with hell.’ some pretty blatant stuff here to suggest the Guardian controls and created the space.


That being said, an argument can be made infinite nothingness doesn’t necessarily mean infinite space, as it may just be flowery language such as with endless voids or an infinite expanse, at the same time however, “nothingness” can also be used to describe the empty space within the dimension, think of it like putting things inside an empty box: if you were to put 1, 2, 3, 10 or 50 things inside the box, all those instances have in common that there´s -something- inside of it, while the absence of anything is naturally -nothing-, so “nothingness” in this context can simply refer to the empty space encompassing the entire dimension, and if there were to be an edge or limit to the nothingness, it wouldn´t be “Infinite”, therefore why “Infinite Nothingness” would still apply as a measure of size


All in all, It’s not a debunkable feat by any means, but the scope of the feat does change depending on how you interpret the translation - Infinite Universal, or vague dimensional manipulation. Plus, if the Babylon Rogues can beat it, early Chaos forms can too.


Erazor Djinn, and Merlina:


Now that we’ve established that Chaos, at least in Perfect, has arguments that he can still compete with the rest of the main cast, we need to discuss two feats from the storybook games that may be important in establishing a limit.


First of all, Erazor Djinn absorbing half of the Arabian Nights, a feat that gets anywhere from 1-500x Universal! The feat itself is fine, but it’s based on interpretations of each story in the Arabian Nights book-verse being their own separate universe. It’s debatable because, from how it appears, certain stories seem to be interconnected in one world, like King Sharyr getting taken from Sand Oasis into Dinosaur Jungle by a pterodactyl from just flying there. Safer ends place the Arabian Nights at Low Multi (2 universes) from the Arabian Nights universe itself + Night Palace’s separate space-time. And Sonic beats him in base form.


We also need to discuss Merlina. At the end of Sonic and The Black Knight, Merlina attempts to merge Camelot with the Underworld through the expanding Dark Hollow. The Underworld is consistently treated as a separate realm from Arthur's world, leading to an argument that Merlina was combining two distinct realities. If the Underworld is treated as a complete universe with its own independent space-time, then merging the two would qualify as a 2x Universal feat.

The problem is that the game never tells us what the Underworld actually is. It is unquestionably another realm, but whether that means a full universe, a separate dimension, or something akin to Mortal Kombat's realms is debatable. It’d still be universal if we say Arthur’s world is a space-time regardless.

That being said, Base Sonic is unable to defeat Merlina and only overcomes her after obtaining the Excalibur transformation. While it's tempting to compare Excalibur Sonic to Super Sonic, the game never establishes any relationship between the Sacred Swords and the Chaos Emeralds. Excalibur Sonic could be weaker than Super Sonic, stronger than Super Sonic, or roughly comparable.

Assuming Perfect Chaos can match this requires stacking multiple assumptions on top of one another, such as generations base sonic being superior to Excalibur Sonic, which isn't something we're particularly comfortable doing. This same logic could also apply to Darkspine Sonic and Alf-Wayla-La-Wayla.

Sonic Prime and the Paradox Prism:

If you don’t buy scaling Chaos to modern base Sonic/Shadow, this one will be moot to you. In the…interesting show Sonic Prime, Eggman unleashes the paradox Prism, a Crystal which shatters reality into multiple shatterspaces! There are multiple feats we need to discuss here: Sonic surviving the explosion, Shadow using Chaos Control to react to the prism/the prisms speed scaling, and the possibility of upgrading the base Universes size due to this.

Cosmology Upgrade???

The most conservative interpretation is that the five Shatterspaces created are simply pocket dimensions. At first glance this isn't unreasonable as each contains stars, a staple of pocket dimensions.

The second interpretation is that the Prism shattered the universe, then created universes. Each possesses its own history, different versions of the cast, and even day-night cycles, implying the existence of independent space-times rather than being a simple pocket realm. Given that Sonic Prime is a multiverse story, this interpretation fits.

Then comes the high-end interpretation, as rather than creating several entirely new universes from scratch, the Paradox Prism shattered the existing Sonic universe into six complete Shatterspaces. If each Shatterspace truly qualifies as a universe, then the original universe contained the entirety of that structure before being fragmented. Basically the prism is splitting one space-time into multiple, thus, a lot of our Universal calcs include this universe-size buff as another interpretation.

Did Sonic survive a Universal - Low Multiversal attack?

If the second or third interpretation is accepted, Sonic was standing virtually at the epicentre when the Paradox Prism detonated. Despite being knocked unconscious, he ultimately survives the event, which on paper is a valid durability feat, potentially placing Modern Sonic somewhere between Universal and Low Multiversal depending on how one interprets the Prism itself. 

The problem is that Sonic survived a reality-warping event that created universes with the 2nd option, not quite the same thing as a full on 6x uni energy feat. If the Shatterspaces are merely pocket dimensions, or if the Prism's effects are more akin to reality manipulation than an explosion, then directly scaling Sonic's durability becomes much harder to justify. The point being it depends on if you see it as pure destructive energy output or something along the lines of reality warping. Pick your poison. 

Speed Scaling:

On paper, scaling to the Paradox Prism's speed runs into the same issue as the Sun Disk feat, trying to scale characters to a random object without any direct interaction. Thankfully, Sonic Prime gives us a little more context than that.

During the Prism's detonation, Shadow activates Chaos Control in an attempt to save Sonic. The debate comes down to the framing of the scene, if Shadow activates Chaos Control simultaneously with the Prism's energy expanding, then he would have to perceive and react to the event, making reaction speed scaling fairly reasonable. If, however, he activates Chaos Control just before the Prism truly goes off, then all he's really reacting to is the imminent detonation, not the Prisms energy itself, making direct speed scaling much weaker, the framing of the scene is just odd.

There's also the matter of Chaos Energy, since the Paradox Prism is tied to Chaos Energy, one could argue that Super Sonic and Shadow naturally scale to some extent. If you also accept that Perfect Chaos scales reasonably close to...a version of Super Sonic (it's unclear if this would apply to older versions), this is more reasonable.


Void & Maginaryworld:

So if you’re reading this and you’re wondering who tf Void is…honestly, you’re not alone. Many of our researchers didn’t really know who Void was until we actually started doing these blogs. Void is the main villain in everyone’s favorite party game, Sonic Shuffle. Where it’s literally said that Void can make Maginaryworld cease to exist from his darkness alone, don’t believe me?

So pretty blatantly Solaris before Solaris. Since Sonic Shuffle is right after the events of Adventure 1, despite release dates, Chaos should be able to scale to Void based on chains discussed earlier, since base Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy bested her (party minigame aside that’s only gameplay) who can destroy Maginaryworld. 


Now the question is, how big exactly is Maginaryworld? Well, as mentioned above in cosmology, the Multiverse itself is potentially Infinite in Size and Scope, or at least innumerable universes. And Maginaryworld is a realm that literally holds an entire 4th Dimensional Space shaped like a tesseract.


What does this mean? It means if we assume Maginaryworld is just a universe within Sonic's multiverse, then it’s at minimum 4D (and thus making Void Universal+). At max it makes Void 5D (Or Low Complex Multiversal)...wait what? 


Ok so think of it this way. Maginaryworld as we know contains the 4th dimensional space, you could interpret this as just the timeline, which yeah on paper makes sense, BUT each level in Shuffle has their own day/night cycle, meaning they have some sort of time-flow. And since each level in Shuffle is their own dream that at minimum contains hundreds of stars, and at maximum is a Universe in size, it’d mean that Maginaryworld as a whole would:

  • Need to be a Universe within Sonic's Multiverse.

  • Contain an uncountable number of dreams the size of Galaxies at worst, Universes at best…meaning Maginaryworld would essentially be a mini Multiverse even though it’s a universe (I see why G1 avoids this shit even if it is important).

  • Debatably each dream would need a flow of time for a day/night cycle to occur. However, given the nature of dreams as their own concept this can be argued to not be the case.

  • This ‘Mini Multiverse’ contains the level 4th Dimensional Space, which is what encompasses Maginaryworld. So how do you encompass even a few universal structures? You become 5th dimensional.


So, TLDR:

At minimum, Void threatens a realm that explicitly contains a 4th Dimensional Space. Even if we take the most conservative interpretation possible, that would still place Void in Universal+ territory.

The realm contains countless dreams, each possessing hundreds of stars and apparent flow of time via their independent day/night cycles, and a ‘4th dimensional’ space encompassing the space-times. Under that interpretation, the realm encompassing them would qualify as a higher-dimensional structure, pushing Void into Low Complex Multiversal territory. It doesn’t make much sense for a ‘4th’ dimensional realm to actually be 5D but it’s not impossible to argue.

That being said, dreams are concepts like what time is, so may not have a time flow…headache, I know

So Uni+, Low Multi-Multi-Multi+ (if you don’t buy the dreams having time), or 5D, take your pick.

And look, I’ve seen the arguments against Void scaling in stuff like my Cell VS Metal Sonic video, I understand, but they’re still a little silly. The argument isn’t just about Void destroying the Preciousstone, it’s about Void being stated to be a threat to Maginaryworld, like how Solaris is to time. 

Overall:

Ultimately, it’s not as complicated to explain as what it may seem, it simply depends on what you think the Prism did, and what the shatterspaces are.

Sonic Speed Arguments:


Like with Pokémon, Sonic has various speed feats that require an evaluation, again less about how they scale to Chaos given the scaling chains mentioned above but moreso establishing what is on the table for us when writing up our verdicts.


Eggman's trip to Nonaggression Zone:


A classic case of "everyone mentions it, but nobody explains why." During Advance 3, Super Sonic pursues Ultimate Gemerl to the Nonaggression Zone, with Eggman somehow keeping pace in the Egg Mobile. The feat is often calculated at billions of times faster than light, but where exactly does that number come from?

For one, the gameplay transition lasts only around six seconds. The real argument, however, comes from the background during the fight. Beyond the fact that Nonaggression is somewhere in outer space, the game never tells us how far away it actually is. Note the star-filled background, there's an argument to be made that the sparkling effects resemble a real nebula rather than a generic warp/particle effect. If those are indeed literal stars and a real nebula, the speed values are calced into the billions of times faster than lightish range. I’ve seen people say the ‘stars’ visibly twinkle, lending some credibility to that interpretation, but it’s moreso the colour of the ‘nebula’ changes throughout the fight. Ultimately though, this is another feat where the conclusion depends largely on you, the reader.

A counterargument is that after Ultimate Gemerl is defeated, he eventually falls back to Earth. Surely that means the battle couldn't have taken place very far away...right? Well, not necessarily. That assumes Gemerl physically fell all the way back to Earth under his own momentum rather than being pulled back through the same thing that brought everyone there in the first place. Even if he did somehow return conventionally, it doesn't automatically invalidate the original travel feat, it just raises more questions about Nonaggression.

Another counterargument is the timeframe, as it uses the loading-screen as the timeframe. Don’t get the wrong idea, if you use it as a timeframe, the math is fine, but it’s not the strongest argument on the planet and the math could be deemed as invalid if you think this is a poor gauge for timeframe.

TLDR - Feat is valid if we assume the background is a nearby Nebula and the timeframe is literally the loading screen. If you don’t think either are valid to gauge the speed of the eggmobile, the math is bunk (feat is still a legit feat).

Sonic’s CD:

In Sonic CD, Sonic can time travel! Immeasurable feat logic is there…butttt this can be very easily debunked as it’s made blatantly clear in lore that the signs help him travel, it’s not a gameplay mechanic, it’s literally stated in the manuals that he can’t do it normally. Even if he did, it changes nothing, it’s stated that it requires him moving at light speed to travel, debunking the immeasurable scale all together.

The White Space feat you all avoid:

For those unaware, in Generations, Sonic and Shadow enter each level (or point in time in lore) whilst it’s devoid of color and life’ due to the Time Eaters' effect on the multiverse. 

This one has been debated for a while now, after all, Tails stating that they ‘accelerate through time and fix space, returning color and life’ is a little vague, and there could be an argument made for this being them basically just re-living events to restore time, but there's a few things wrong with this.

  1. If that was the intention, why didn’t they just say that? Something like ‘they re-live past events resetting them to normal’.

  2. The statements seem to be leaning towards the immeasurable argument (or inaccessible if you are being weird about terminology), after all, they said ‘ACCELERATING’ specifically, why not ‘moving’ or ‘re-living’?

  3. The biggest problem is Classic Sonic, he wasn’t in levels like crisis city, speed highway, seaside hill etc etc, so how can that be counted as ‘re-living’? 

  4. The Japanese dub even flat out says its Sonic’s speed doing the work.

You may also want to argue that sonic CD calling time travel light speed debunks this, but there's a difference between traveling through time and restoring a concept with sheer speed (these are points in time as well), and the light speed travel only works with aid from the signs anyway, no evidence only light speed is enough to time travel normally, especially with all the FTL feats listed here.

Even if you wanted to argue a hax argument, the same logic applies…where the hell has Sonic or Shadow ever had an ability like that? It’s the definition of a ‘somehow’ feat for both, but Chaos Energy or something idk. So yeah this should be fine for immeasurable speed.

Black Doom:

Shadow Gens introduced one of the latest major speed feats in the franchise. During the climax, Black Doom spreads his Doom Zone throughout White Space, engulfing the entire area in roughly three seconds.

If we treat White Space as merely the size of a conventional universe, it clocks in at roughly 489 Quadrillion times the speed of light. If you instead buy the higher-end interpretation we mentioned before from Prime, where the original universe contained the equivalent of six complete Shatterspaces, that climbs to around 5.86 Quintillion times light speed.

The feat itself is fine and usable, the debate is more so, “do we stay in finite territory”, or is this “infinite or immeasurable”? Ideally you’ve read the cosmology section already.

For: Basically, White Space is what remains after Time Eater blips away all of space-time, existing between dimensions and acting as a hub for different timelines, described as inter-dimensional, as well as aspatial and atemporal by Ian Flynn. To encompass this, you’d have to dip into higher dimensionality. Doom would be spreading an attack across a realm that encompasses timelines, and given the tunnel of time itself is described as infinite, it gives validity to an infinite speed or immeasurable speed argument.

Against: Just because time doesn’t exist here, doesn’t mean we know how movement here should be treated. You don’t NEED non-finite speeds to traverse a place like White Space, look at Maria! Aspatial and atemporal do not state that travelling through it requires non-finite speeds.

Whilst we’re here, an argument can be made that Doom dips its toes into the cosmology scaling too based on this, but that’s for another time.

Time Eater:

If you don’t buy Chaos scaling at all to Time Eater, this one ain’t for you. Basically, Eggman’s Time Eater…travels through time, huzzah. Throughout Generations it does so via portals, but the debate itself comes from the final boss fight, where the Super Sonics and Temporal Chomper ‘fly through the end of time’ the tunnel of time. So, is this anything noteworthy?

Arguments For: Now it’s noticeable in cutscenes that Time Eater uses portals to travel between time in White Space, but in the finale it is traveling through a temporal realm. If it really does represent all of time, then traversing it could qualify as infinite speed or immeasurable. Even if it isn’t from one end to the other, moving through a structure that embodies time itself would likely mean non-finite speeds.

Arguments Against: If I say to you I walked through a forest or cave, that could mean end-to-end, but it could also mean traversing a fraction of the trees. This argument is sort of similar. The feat itself obviously involves movement through a realm related with time, not  necessarily with moving across the ENTIRETY of time. Let’s be technical with it, Sonic would have to travel from one temporal ‘coordinate’ to the other for this statement to be arguable as immeasurable, simply traversing through this is not immeasurable. If he moved from the past to the future by flying alright fair game. Even if you take into account them flying in and out of the tunnel of time during gameplay it's a bit iffy still, again navigating an axis doesn't mean immeasurable, they are literally moving a few feet over to do so, it comes across as more spatial than temporal ironically. To me (TDG) this comes across as misunderstanding what immeasurable means.

Solaris:

Let’s get this out the way, being Omnipresent does not make you immeasurable, that is a state, not a speed. That being said, Solaris has a non-finite argument outside of that. Solaris originates from a higher-dimension of reality, so an argument there can be made about its speed. Additionally, it consumes dimensions and timelines for lunch, and upon awakening in-game, spreads its light/energy across the entire universe in about 19-23 seconds, getting into the quadrillions of times faster then light territory! However, it also spread it across at least 2 other timelines (the past and the future), sparking conversation about if this is immeasurable.

Argument For: For starters, given the cosmology, being above space-time may already grant non-finite speeds off-rip. Additionally, if Solaris fired its energy across all points in time at once, then if we’re being technical here temporal ‘coordinates’ are being crossed.

Argument Against: A huge issue is that Solaris already exists across all points in time, meaning it may just be spreading its energy across that set point, not expanding into others. Plus, consuming a timeline is not the same as traversing one. Not to mention we don’t know if Solaris can traverse through time with speed alone.

Sonic escapes Cyberspace:


In Sonic Frontiers, Sonic is able to escape Cyberspace via clearing the levels, the ancients attributing this to his own power. This is a separate reality, which means the non-finite speed meta is yet again present:

Arguments for: This is pretty easy to justify, it’s stated to be a separate reality and therefore separate space-time, If Sonic truly escapes it through nothing but his own power, then one could argue he's traversing beyond an entire space-time continuum under his own movement. Knuckles outright states he couldn't escape Cyber Space himself, suggesting simply finding an exit isn't enough. Likewise, The Ancients specifically credit Sonic's own power for allowing him to break free. Plus, Sonic is pretty casual about this.

Arguments against: The issue is how Sonic leaves. Although The Ancients say it's thanks to Sonic's own power, every escape is still visually represented through portals. Hell, escaping via ‘power’ doesn’t even mean he ran out of the boundaries of reality with speed, power could just refer to being able to clear tasks and destroy enemies. 

Sonic and The Avatar Escape Null Space:


After being trapped inside Null Space, a space made by the Phantom Ruby sealed off from reality. Sonic and You, The Avatar just…run out of it. Yeah this needs some evaluation:

Arguments for: This… is weird. Null Space is stated to have NOTHING in it, an empty dimension cut off from reality, the japanese dub states its closed off from any dimension. The presentation of the game shows they just run out of it with the power of friendship, the ‘portal’ only opening as they start running. Eggman acts in disbelief afterwards too, Sonic just ‘ran faster than usual’ apparently. This means non-finite speed is valid.

Arguments against: Despite the statements, we still don’t know if it’s infinite in size or exists transcendently to other areas of the Sonic cosmology. It’s impressive, but not necessarily infinite or immeasurably fast in the traditional sense. There’s also YOU. Yes, YOU may have ruined this feat. Since the Avatar and Sonics friendship and teamwork apparently plays a factor here, you could argue some form of ‘hax’ is relevant here. It also begs the question of did he even run the whole distance or just a small finite area? Or did the Phantom Ruby Prototype just not contain the blue rat? With that said the infinite argument is still there.

…oh yeah Infinite Night Palace feat ain’t a feat since it’s from a prima guide and we don’t know if Sonic ran across all of it. Stop larping.

Verdicts:


Individual Verdicts for those interested - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hr6d4GPwHH08zhrdoVoxVtFXfA-K9hWVe9rbJ0dRAQo/edit?tab=t.0 


Team Kyogre:


Stats:

First up, stats! Kyogre's own feats are already absurd, flooding the entire planet is worth roughly 20 Exatons of TNT, and Primal Kyogre destroying the Grand Delta Meteor alongside Groudon reaches 26.75 Zettatons. Scaling wise, Rayquaza would be at least 1/3 comparable to halting the tree of life's descent into the Sun (4.8 Ronnatons), it also scales to other Pokémon like Gardevoir, who can make small black holes (Upwards of 0.51 FOE), and Solgaleo can light up the Universe (34.93 TeraFOE). Kyogre could likely scale somewhat to Darkrai surviving an attack that would have destroyed the infinite universe, and depending on how generous you are feeling, can scale to even the Creation Trio themselves.

The problem is...even before getting into the controversial stuff, Chaos scales above the Adventure-era cast, who consistently dismantle Eggman's strongest machines. Standard Eggman technology has survived black holes (1.7 – 379 KiloFOE), and The Death Egg itself is capable of destroying multiple stars in a single blast (4.56 KiloFOE – 41.25 TeraFOE), Even without that the Emeralds can Blow up half the moon (376.9 Zettatons) and pierce through stars (32.1 Quettatons). Fighters comparable to Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Rogue etc have repeatedly overcome this level of power, and Perfect Chaos sits comfortably above the base cast of its own era. For instance, through Sonic Battle, Chaos has a direct route to Emerl, who absorbed the Death Egg’s energy into its own body before being defeated by base-level fighters. Even without that the Negative Power of the emeralds should scale to their Universe-Busting might in Sonic Rush, possibly higher depending on your stance on Sonic Primes ‘cosmology buff’.

From there, Modern Sonic defeats Perfect Chaos in Generations without requiring a Super Form, which either suggests Perfect Chaos is outclassed heavily by Modern Base Sonic, or can at least downscale a little, it varies depending on which of us you ask. But, if you buy the Phantom Ruby clones as valid scaling, Chaos continues scaling alongside the modern cast regardless, so the argument for keeping up with the modern cast even in base is possible.

Hell take Erazor Djinn or Void, both reasonable scaling arguments which make the gap grow even wider to a Universal – Multiversal extent (ends for Maginaryworld vary as I’m sure anyone who’s scaled Sonic knows). And if you accept the various arguments surrounding Classic Super Sonic, and thus Time Eater or Black Doom, Chaos has genuine routes into 5D, multiple layers too! Possibly even 6D.

Now, to be fair, Pokémon has similar loopholes through the likes of Lugia, Latios/Latias, and Rayquaza and the best movie ever. There's certainly an argument that Box-Art Legendaries are generally intended to exist within the same rough tier, allowing Kyogre to downscale from Dialga, Palkia or Giratina, who have multiple arguments for Vague Multiversal via Giratina’s rift, or assuming there’s just one Dialga and Palkia – possibly even 5D if we assume Palkia made Ultra-Space and buy the interpretation that Ultra-Space encompasses the universes and timelines.

The issue for both is consistency, see those scaling chains generally require several assumptions stacked together, neither side reaches their absolute peaks without some level of interpretation. Don’t get us wrong, neither argument is amazing or invalid, but if we were being generous, Chaos would take the edge in high-ends as well.

But can’t Kyogre keep increasing its power overtime? Yes. “By the minute” to be precise. It could assist Kyogre in matching the lower ends for Chaos, but if any of the higher-arguments are bought then yeah it won’t help Kyogre much.

Speed follows much the same pattern. Don’t get us wrong Kyogre is no slouch whatsoever, scaling from Deoxys piloting the Meteor gets to 986,175c. Solgaleo places it 1 Billion c to be exact, but Solgaleo could likely travel further than what the game limits it as. We could also scale Kyogre to Darkrai in PokePark ‘outpacing’ a 2x Uni Black Hole (4.58 Quadrillion c). However, an argument can be made this is just a resistance. Infinite arguments do exist via the Ultra-Space feats, or if you really believe Infinite Universe creation scales to Kyogre, but they aren’t the strongest.

Unfortunately for Kyogre, this is Sonic it’s facing...the franchise not the character. Adventure-era Sonic was already relativistic to lightspeed, and the series has done little besides escalate ever since. Shadow keeps pace with the Paradox Prism, which compresses an entire universe in seconds (1.46 Quintillion c) (an argument can be made chaos energy scales above this speed in general), Master Core ABIS moves entire galaxies within the Lightless Black (196.4 Billion c), and later villains like Time Eater and Black Doom, as outlined in BTVs, have 5.86 Quintillion c, Infinite or even Immeasurable arguments depending on how the cosmology is interpreted. Even just downscaling Modern Sonic would give us plenty of arguments into non-finite speeds for Chaos such as Sonic running so fast he high-fives himself (he was amped but there’s no reason Chaos Energy wouldn’t scale above this). Not to mention, Sonic has a blatant immeasurable feat via accelerating through time to restore areas destroyed by Time Eater.

To be completely fair, and this will be relevant later, Perfect Chaos’ mobility sucks. No matter how you scale its perceptions or reactions, its projectile speed, regeneration speed, and travel speed does not stack up. And as we shall get into next, this will play a factor in securing Kyogre the win.

Not every member of the team buys the highest ends, but almost everyone agreed on one thing: even ignoring the infinite arguments entirely, Chaos reached faster and stronger scaling chains than Kyogre did. Even if you downscaled.

HOWEVER, raw numbers only matter if you're actually able to use them effectively, and as the team quickly realized, Chaos' greatest advantages on paper become significantly less meaningful once Kyogre's own abilities start interacting with them. Still, if this fight came down to who hit harder or reacted faster Chaos would take it.


Arsenal & Abilities:

Both Kyogre and Chaos are capable of manipulating enormous quantities of water, but once we started looking at how their abilities interacted, it quickly became clear this wasn't a mirror match at all.

Obviously, Chaos isn't simply covered in water, it IS water, where conventional attacks barely inconvenience it, as blows simply pass through its body before the missing mass reforms moments later. It can split into dozens of smaller projectiles, melt into puddles, merge with enormous bodies of water and even invade another organism's body from the inside. Basically, permanently putting it down is a problem, as its regeneration is really overpowered. No matter the damage, Chaos can rapidly reform so long as water remains available

The problem is that Kyogre is the worst possible matchup for Chaos (not in a versus sense don’t worry this shit is peak). Unlike Sonic, who largely has to overpower Chaos through his weak spot, Kyogre can attack the very thing Chaos is made of. Rather than simply blasting away at its body and allowing it to regenerate, Kyogre can directly manipulate the water Chaos uses to fight to expose its brain. Whether that means forcing its body apart or simply denying it control over the battlefield or itself, Chaos' greatest defensive advantage suddenly becomes something Kyogre can actively interfere with. If it splits to attack or retreat? Denied. Melt into a puddle? Denied. Regenerate from brain-damage? Denied. Invade Kyogre’s body? Denied. Shoot it with literally most of its attacks? You get the picture.

This became even more relevant once Perfect Chaos comes out, Perfect Chaos merging with an entire city worth of water makes it vastly harder to kill, and destroying its body isn't enough because it can reform elsewhere within the surrounding water. But, against Kyogre, that massive body of water just becomes another liability, as the larger Chaos grows, and the higher the quantity of water its merged with, the more water Kyogre has influence over. Remember Kyogre made the entire planets oceans and can flood the entire planet, perfectly capable of manipulating any water. Whilst Chaos can vaguely ‘destroy this world’, it’s not clear what that means in terms of timeframe, method etc. Throwing an ocean at Chaos might simply increase its size or do nothing (likely damaging the brain at least), but given the advantages excess water grants Kyogre…you’ll see.

While the endless rain would undoubtedly empower Chaos' hydrokinetic attacks as well, it simultaneously provides Kyogre with even more water to manipulate, since the weather arguably favors whichever combatant has superior control over the water itself, and well, Kyogre clearly takes the crown there.

That's not to say Chaos lacks answers to Kyogre, unlike Kyogre’s Rest, it doesn't need to stop fighting to heal itself with Chaos Heal, and Chaos Bind also provides an effective restraint, freezing water molecules around Kyogre to lock it in place (although an argument can be made given the description Kyogre can manipulate the water back). The Blue Orb’s mind control likely would not matter here as well, since the Emeralds have multiple showings of Mind Control resistance, but if you argue that this doesn’t matter if the Blue Orb possess the victim first, you can argue either side. The issue regardless of all this is that Kyogre's own arsenal counters those advantages.

Take regeneration. Chaos can absolutely recover from devastating injuries, but only if it's allowed to. Kyogre possesses multiple ways to repeatedly interrupt that process outside of just halting it with its superior hydrokinesis. Freezing the surrounding water with Sheer Cold could freeze the entire city given the potency of what we see in the Mega Evolution Special, meaning Chaos loses its medium to regenerate, and could get frozen itself. Even if Chaos eventually breaks free, every interruption gives Kyogre another opportunity to target the exposed brain before regeneration can fully resume.

Chaos derives much of its strength from the innate Chaos Energy within its body even as Chaos 0, growing after absorbing the negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds. Meanwhile, Kyogre has access to techniques capable of directly draining life energy from opponents as we see in the Manga. Since Chaos itself is repeatedly described as being composed of both water and Chaos Energy, all of us considered it entirely plausible that Kyogre could just weaken Chaos by draining away at least part, if not all, of the very energy sustaining it, since Chaos Energy and Life Energy are directly linked. Even if this wouldn't completely strip Chaos of its powers, it would at least lessen the stat gap to the point Chaos really wouldn’t have much against Kyogre. Even if Chaos can absorb energy, its only really able to do with the chaos emeralds’ chaos energy, not something he can shoot out of his body. But couldn’t Chaos just recharge the emeralds? Not really. He drains them of their energy fully to activate Perfect Chaos, by all technicalities, he doesn’t have the emeralds once he activates Perfect Chaos.

Kyogre also simply has more answers available at any given moment, such as Thunder giving it an effective way to target Chaos' exposed brain with electricity far more potent than Chaos' own electrical aura. Toxic allows it to slowly wear Chaos down over time. Calm Mind lets it amplify its own power, while Substitute creates breathing room to set up, and Primordial Sea constantly boosts Kyogre's own water moves (and Chaos’ too probably). Most importantly, Safeguard can stop any of Chaos’ few status effects.

Another huge advantage of Perfect Chaos is its mobility…well, advantage for Kyogre. Look we don’t deny Chaos should have superior reactions (if he’s competent enough to use them), but nothing indicates his travel, attack, or regeneration speed would scale to this. Giving Kyogre a clear mobility advantage and thus more opportunities to get off its numerous wincons.

Finally, there was one ability that most of us didn’t know about before this blog - Kyogre can summon other Water-type Pokemon. Don’t get us wrong, individually, few of these allies wouldn’t pose much of a threat to Chaos, but together they force Chaos to divide its attention while Kyogre continues controlling the battlefield allowing it to drain energy, manipulate chaos to just a brain etc, that additional pressure only makes exploiting Chaos' weaknesses easier.

Ironically, Chaos' defining ability ultimately became its greatest disadvantage, and that’s a little sad.

Edge: Kyogre.


Tertiary Factors:

Starting with skill, Chaos has the better case. Throughout Sonic Adventure it manages to keep up with fighters like Sonic and Knuckles, experienced martial artists with years of combat behind them. Even outside of Perfect Chaos, it adapts quickly to every new form it takes, changing its body to suit different situations. Meanwhile Kyogre…isn't exactly a technical fighter. Most of its attacks rely on overwhelming force and brute power rather than refined technique. If this category came down purely to who was the better fighter in a martial sense, Chaos would probably take it, not that it matters much.

As Experience is a much bigger advantage for Kyogre. Both are ancient, but Kyogre has existed since the formation of the world's oceans, spending millennia battling Groudon and travelling the seas. Even after periods of dormancy, nearly every appearance it makes ends with it confronting another threat on its own level, such as other legendaries.

Chaos, meanwhile, spent the majority of its existence sealed inside the Master Emerald. Its most famous battle against the Knuckles Clan…wasn’t a fight, it was a flood that wiped them out almost immediately after Chaos absorbed the Emeralds' negative energy. Chaos then remained imprisoned for thousands of years before the events of Sonic Adventure, meaning it actually has very few canonical battles against opponents comparable to itself. While Chaos is certainly dangerous, it simply hasn't built up the same wealth of combat experience that Kyogre has accumulated.

Intelligence ended up being the deciding factor. Perfect Chaos is, fundamentally, consumed by rage. That's the entire point of its character. After witnessing the massacre of the Chao, Chaos abandoned rational thought and became driven almost entirely by grief and destruction. Even Sega's own descriptions calling Chaos "highly intelligent" don't really have many on-screen demonstrations to back them up, particularly once it reaches its Perfect form.

Kyogre, on the other hand, demonstrates that it can think beyond whatever is directly in front of it, as across the games, manga and anime, Kyogre is shown recognizing manipulation, and even abandoning immediate conflict when a larger objective presents itself as shown in the Manga. Its rival Groudon has displayed similar behavior, such as realizing that mind-controlling Pikachu was a far better escape plan than endlessly trying to smash its way out of containment. Since Groudon and Kyogre are consistently portrayed as equals, there's little reason to think Kyogre wouldn't approach this in the same calculated way.

Chaos' greatest weakness is also literally sitting on top of its body for everyone to see. If Kyogre is intelligent enough to recognize that exposed brain as the source of Chaos' regeneration, there's very little reason to think it would continue wasting attacks on the rest of Chaos' body. Abilities like Sheer Cold, energy absorption and Kyogre's control over water all become much deadlier when used by someone capable of identifying exactly how to exploit their opponent.

Chaos may be the more naturally gifted combatant, but Kyogre is smarter, and vastly more experienced. Against an opponent whose greatest flaw is acting almost entirely on instinct and emotion, those qualities ultimately mattered far more than martial skill alone.

Edge: Kyogre.


Conclusion:

Chaos undeniably possessed the greater raw power with safe and high-ends. Chaos’ scaling chains simply reached higher than Kyogre's in both Attack Potency and Speed. If this fight was decided purely by who could hit harder or react faster, Chaos would have comfortably taken the victory.

Thankfully for us, Kyogre happened to be almost tailor-made to fight Chaos. Chaos' greatest strengths such as its reshapable physiology, regeneration and ability to merge with bodies of water were all easily counterable against the Pokemon that literally governs the seas. Rather than trying to overpower Chaos, Kyogre could repeatedly interfere with its regeneration, manipulate the very body Chaos fought with, freeze its medium of recovery and movement, target its exposed weak point and even drain away the energy sustaining its power. Add Kyogre's greater experience, calmer decision-making and significantly broader arsenal, as well as Perfect Chaos’ lack of attack speed, travel speed, or regeneration speed, and the team ultimately felt Chaos simply didn't have enough answers once the fight dragged on.

In the end, Chaos may have been stronger and has faster reactions, but Kyogre possessed the exact toolkit needed to make Chaos H20wned. Sometimes the more powerful combatant wins. This just wasn't one of those times.

The Winner is Kyogre.


Advantages:

  • Superior Hydrokinesis in terms of volume.

  • Hydrokinesis directly counters anything Chaos wants to do with its body.

  • Can prevent regeneration via Sheer Cold or Hydrokinesis.

  • Can literally drain the Emeralds’ energy or Chaos’ base physiology.

  • Far greater mobility than Perfect Chaos.

  • Can summon other Pokemon to overwhelm Chaos.

  • Far more versatile via status moves.

  • Safeguard can block any status effects.

  • Can grow in power to potentially match the low-ends for Chaos.

  • Superior Intelligence.

  • Likely a LOT older than Chaos, and has been in active combat a lot more.

  • Less prone to Tunnel Vision and emotional combat.


Disadvantages:

  • Lower Attack Potency and Reaction Speeds no matter what end.

  • Primordial Sea would also buff Chaos.

  • The Blue Orbs hax are useless.

  • Somehow hasn’t beaten Groudon yet.

  • Isn’t Groudon - TDG.


Team Chaos:

Stats:

Of note before we begin, if a lot of this sounds like something you read above…yeah.

Kyogre certainly isn't lacking in raw power, responsible for raising sea levels across the entire planet, or 20 Exatons of TNT. Battling alongside Groudon to destroy the Grand Delta Meteor boosts that to 26.75 Zettatons, while scaling to other legendary Pokémon like Rayquaza intercepting and destroying the Tree of Life before it crashed into the Sun reaches roughly 4.8 Ronnatons, Gardevoir's black holes gets to around 0.51 FOE at best, and Mewtwo destroying an entire dimension containing stars sits within the 140 PetaFOE range.

Through the likes of Lugia and Rayquaza, arguments for higher scaling exist, with Solgaleo restoring light across a universe calculated at around 34.93 TeraFOE. There’s also an argument through Mewtwo, 50% Zygarde etc to reach Base Necrozma absorbing all of the light of Ultra Space, which as you’ve seen in cosmology is a bit tricky to get a number for, but it still does require some hoops. Then we arrive at the infamous Creation Trio arguments. Dialga and Palkia are responsible for creating and governing space-time itself, with Pokémon Legends: Arceus describing innumerable universes existing within the multiverse. Alongside the arguments for Save File scaling and Many-Worlds theory, you can argue the Creation Trio anywhere from Universal+, all the way through Multiversal and even 5th-dimensional scaling with assumptions about Palkia making Ultra-Space.

To be fair, not everyone on Team Chaos bought those arguments as some of us weren’t convinced by the Shiny Mega Clearly Developer Insert Rayquaza being a valid scaling medium, and some of us accepted the higher interpretations but rejected higher-dimensional scaling. Look this matchup doesn’t have concrete stats no matter how you go about it. Even so, we were still willing to acknowledge that Kyogre has some genuinely absurd high ends.

The problem is that Chaos does as well. Even ignoring the controversial scaling chains, earlier forms scale above Emerl absorbing the Death Eggs power destroying some stars, calculated between roughly 4.56 KiloFOE and 41.25 TeraFOE. Eggman's technology also survives black holes and Chaos would be able to crack them in base form.

Perfect Chaos is where things become odd. As unlike Super Sonic, Perfect Chaos only utilises the negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds. On paper that sounds like a disadvantage, but it doesn't stop Chaos from scaling to the Emeralds' baseline output. The Chaos and Sol Emeralds are treated as parallel artifacts, and the Sol Emeralds alone were capable of merging Sonic and Blaze's universes together. Even if Chaos isn't drawing out their full potential, he's still empowering them through negative emotion, the very plot device consistently used to amplify Emerald power in the first place. At minimum, that places Perfect Chaos comfortably into Universal at a safe end. Hell, The Babylon Guardian can literally warp an Infinite dimension, and some dumbass bird with a skateboard can beat it up, meaning scaling Chaos to this chain is fairly easy.

Also, Modern Sonic defeats the Egg Dragoon, Eggman's strongest machine at the time and a weapon enhanced by Dark Gaia's power. The Egg Dragoon itself surpasses previous mechs like the Super Egg Robo and True Area 53 Boss capable of restraining Adventure-era Super Sonic, who in turn already scales to the baseline power of the Chaos Emeralds. Since Perfect Chaos is capable of fighting Modern Sonic directly, damaging him and surviving repeated Boost attacks, including direct strikes through the brain, it naturally would have those same scaling chains, whilst this doesn’t impact scaling too much, it does reinforce arguments about the Sonic Rush scaling. This places Chaos somewhere between 2-12x Universal depending on if you buy the Sonic Prime cosmology interpretations or not.

Even if not all of us bought the scaling fully, Void destroying the entirety of Maginaryworld, Time Eater consuming all of space-time, and Black Doom exerting control over White Space would all exceed Kyogre’s best. Depending on how Maginaryworld, and White Space are interpreted, these feats range anywhere from Multiversal, through 5D, all the way into 6D territory. The vagueness of Sonic feats and cosmology does impact us giving you guys an exact locked in number as I’m sure you’ve gathered. Whilst one of us does believe in possible 7-8D arguments for Sonic, 6D is still a safe bet.

Regardless of where everyone individually drew the line, Chaos ends up one tier above Kyogre no matter what ends are used.

As for speed, Kyogre can dodge light speed attacks like Solar Beam and Flash Cannon. And Solgaleo and Lunala crossing Ultra Space is calced around 1 billion times faster than light, while Palkia and Dialga creating entire galaxies reaches roughly 416.67 Billion times FTL. And Darkrai’s pokepark feat of outpacing a 2x Universal Black Hole can get to 4.58 Quadrillion c! Some of us argue that since the Creation Trio can move realities, it can be seen as Infinite speed. Hell Base Necrozma absorbing Ultra-Spaces light could also be seen as Infinite speed.

Again, these aren't bad arguments. The issue is that Sonic has them too. Classic Sonic has been lightspeed since his classic games thanks to dodging lasers as well as the light-speed shoes, Again, the skateboard birds can defeat Master Core ABIS, who as outlined in the BTVs, is likely spinning a galaxy at 196.4 Billion c! Shadow activating Chaos Control alongside the Paradox Prism's explosion alone reaches around 1.46 quintillion times faster than light, already placing Chaos millions of times ahead of Kyogre's more conservative scaling even if you downscaled him.

For some high-ends, Time Eater destroying the Universe at minimum is 122 Quadrillion c, reaching the early Quintillion ranges (2.2 - 6.7 tee hee) depending on how much of the cosmology you think he wiped out.

Modern Sonic escapes Null Space, runs through Cyber Space, and in Sonic Generations is outright stated by Tails to be "accelerating through time" itself while restoring reality. Sonic's Infinite and even Immeasurable speed arguments were more consistent and significantly easier to justify through direct on-screen showings rather than implications.

Now, to be fair, not everyone bought every single one of those feats. Infinite and Immeasurable Speed are always controversial topics, regardless of franchise. The important point wasn't that everyone agreed Chaos possessed Immeasurable Speed, but at the very least possessed better arguments for it than Kyogre.

And yes, Perfect Chaos is a sitting duck, but its reaction and attack speeds scaling to all of this would still be enough to keep Kyogre at bay.

Edge: Chaos.

Arsenal & Abilities:

Kyogre wins versatility, lets just rip that band aid off. Between its enormous movepool, and status effects, Kyogre simply has far more options available than Chaos does. But is that arsenal good enough to negate the clear stat edge? At first glance, it certainly looked like it might.

Chaos' physiology is both his greatest strength and, on paper, his greatest weakness. His body constantly shifts between liquid and solid states, allowing attacks to pass harmlessly through him, and reform from seemingly fatal injuries. Naturally, that immediately raised the obvious question: if Kyogres planet-level manipulation of water was that potent, couldn't it simply manipulate Chaos' body directly?

It's certainly a reasonable argument, and one we spent a lot of time discussing. Kyogre can summon torrential rain across entire regions through Primordial Sea, generate continent-spanning storms, create whirlpools, tidal waves and water tornadoes large enough to engulf cities, while effortlessly manipulating massive quantities of water during battle to the point it can flood the planet. If Chaos truly is nothing more than water, then in theory Kyogre should have every opportunity to seize control of his body and deny Chaos any opportunities to move, regenerate and so on.

However, that all oversimplifies what Chaos actually is. His body is sustained by Chaos energy. Hydrokinesis may very well interfere with Chaos' movements or make regeneration more difficult. But none of us were convinced that simply controlling water automatically translated into permanently controlling Chaos himself. Tear him apart, and he simply reforms elsewhere. Stretch him across an ocean, and he can continue fighting just as effectively as before, that’s the point of Chaos’ body.

Even assuming Kyogre could manipulate and control Chaos for the whole fight, we wasn't convinced that actually solved the main problem of how do you keep him down? Because regeneration is arguably Chaos' single greatest advantage in this matchup even with the stat gap.

Sonic himself repeatedly tears through Chaos' body with attacks that would completely destroy conventional opponents, only for Chaos to immediately reconstruct himself moments later, and dispersing one section simply leaves countless others available to rebuild from.

Take Sheer Cold, for example. Completely freezing Chaos has worked before, most notably against Chaos 6. Even if Kyogre successfully immobilised Chaos, freezing doesn’t automatically prevent eventual recovery, especially since Chaos has repeatedly survived far greater physical destruction. Plus since the Emeralds have revived others from unconsciousness before, it’s plausible that they could prevent Perfect Chaos from being affected by sheer cold.

Kyogre also possesses multiple methods of weakening opponents, and we can admit draining life energy would be a pretty solid way of depowering Chaos to some extent. After all, Chaos' transformations are powered by the Chaos Emeralds. If Kyogre could reduce that energy supply, perhaps Perfect Chaos would simply collapse back into a weaker state.

But The Chaos Emeralds have repeatedly restored depleted users through emotion, and replenished lost energy. Chaos himself draws strength directly from powerful emotions, particularly negative ones, making it unclear exactly how much energy Kyogre would realistically be able to remove before Chaos simply replenished it. It’s not like Kyogre could summon the Chao now is it? Even if Kyogre succeeded temporarily, none of us felt confident that energy drain alone permanently solved the regeneration issue.

Even Kyogre’s mind hax wouldn’t help here, the Emeralds have prevented memory alteration and mind control, and absorbed Eggman’s tech capable of wiping memories. It’s entirely possible the Blue Orb would not have much of an effect here.

The same applied to Primordial Sea. Increasing the amount of available water arguably provides him with even more material to manipulate, absorb or reform from, unintentionally strengthening Perfect Chaos just as much as Kyogre, making it one of the few battlefield control abilities that potentially assists both combatants simultaneously.

Of course, this isn't to say Chaos lacked useful abilities of his own too as while his arsenal is significantly smaller, it still would give him more opportunities to get off a potential one-shot. Chaos Bind mainly could immobilise opponents like Kyogre. And Chaos Heal is a far better option than rest. The point is, even if his abilities aren’t as impressive, their primary purpose was simply creating opportunities for Chaos to capitalise on his superior Attack Potency and Speed, which it could.

Every major win condition Kyogre possessed required Kyogre to first create an opening against a faster opponent capable of regenerating from virtually any conventional damage. Kyogre almost certainly possesses the more versatile moveset, but means very little if your best options can't be applied consistently against your opponent. All Chaos really needed is his regeneration and resistances to Kyogre’s hax.

Edge: Kyogre in Versatility, Chaos in counters.

Tertiary Factors:

Compared to everything else we've talked about, this was honestly the easiest category to decide. Starting with intelligence, this one wasn't particularly close. Neither of these guys are exactly masterminds, but Kyogre has shown it's capable of making decisions based on logic and not emotion as seen in the Manga when it stops fighting with Groudon to focus on the protagonists.

Chaos...not so much. Now, that's not to say Chaos is stupid. The problem is that most of his decisions are fuelled by emotion rather than careful planning, byy the time he becomes Perfect Chaos, he's consumed by anger and trauma. Quite literally a rage-fuelled kaiju. So yeah, intelligence pretty comfortably goes to Kyogre.

Experience was pretty similar. Chaos is ancient as he's been around for thousands of years, and has fought plenty of battles throughout his life. But the issue is a huge chunk of that life was spent sealed inside the Master Emerald.

Kyogre, meanwhile, has been fighting and guarding the seas since before recorded history. It always threatens the entire planet every time it wakes up and has simply fought against or alongside more opponents on its level than Chaos.

Combat skill was probably the closest of the three. Chaos’ entire fighting style revolves around his liquid physiology. There aren't many characters who can fight the way Chaos does, and that's something we felt was worth acknowledging. That said, we also weren't convinced it mattered enough to swing the category.

Every advantage Kyogre has in this debate relies on it actually getting the chance to use it, being smarter only matters if you have time to think, and having more experience only matters if you can actually put it to use. Regardless, even if Kyogre was smart enough to put its potential ‘wincons’ into practice, or recognises that Chaos’ brain is the weak spot, it still isn’t strong or fast enough to capitalise on it.

Edge: Kyogre.

Conclusion:

This matchup was far closer than the final verdict might suggest. Kyogre had answers for almost everything Chaos brought to the table. Hydrokinesis could potentially interfere with Chaos' liquid body, Sheer Cold could immobilise him, energy drain threatened to weaken his transformations, and its greater intelligence meant it was far more likely to recognise and exploit those opportunities than Chaos ever would.

However, every meaningful advantage Kyogre possessed ultimately depended on overcoming what we believed were Chaos' biggest strengths first. Before it could manipulate his body, it had to catch him. Before it could freeze him, it had to land the attack. Before it could exploit his regeneration, it had to overcome it. And a faster, stronger opponent with absurd regenerative abilities simply wasn't going to make that easy.

Could Kyogre win? Absolutely. We all agreed there are believable scenarios where it freezes Chaos, exploits his physiology or simply outsmarts him. We just didn't believe those scenarios happened often enough. More often than not, Chaos' superior physicals, incredible regeneration and resistance to many of Kyogre's best options meant he'd overwhelm the sea titan before those answers could truly come into play.

The Winner is Chaos.

Advantages:

  • Stronger regardless of safe or high-ends.

  • Faster, finite or non-finite ends.

  • Broken Regeneration.

  • Standard attacks won’t do much.

  • Kyogre’s best options couldn’t permanently put Chaos down in-time.

  • Simpler win-con.

Disadvantages:

  • Far less Versatile.

  • Not as intelligent.

  • Less active combat experience.

  • Vulnerable and very exploitable weak-spot

  • Hasn’t beaten the Big Drip allegations.


Final Tally:



Kyogre -  Blursed, Bridgette, El Cato,  Man of Action, MiaMagic, Radiant Claire, The Drunk Giraffe, Windindi (8)


Chaos -  FinalCometVA, Mugen Kage, SpriteFightMan (3).




Other Sonic Villain and Legendary Pokemon Matchups we like: 



Mewtwo VS BlackWarGreymon:

(TN by Radiant Claire)


Radiant Claire: 

It’s probably my 2nd favorite matchup ever and I’d kill to work on it one day as I adore Adventure 02 and Pokemon so it would be fun to deep dive into some of my favorite series. 

I think the debate is genuinely really close as it’s effectively stats vs hax but unlike with Shadow, BWG doesn’t resist basically everything Mewtwo has. 

I do lean towards BlackwarGreymon winning due to his immense speed and Dark Terra Force being busted, but it would be fascinating to deep dive his later scaling from the video games. 



Deoxys vs Dark Samus:

(TN by Radiant Claire)


Radiant Claire: 

Another genuinely banger MU, and one I’d gladly do because I adore the prime trilogy (yes just the 3). I think this one is also super debatable if you don't give Deoxys his more nuts abilities like the time stop from that one puzzle game. I personally have my money on Dark Samus as the Phazon is kinda broken, and Deoxys’ only way to win being specifically destroying the planet Phazon with the Grand Meteor Delta which is a bit of a weird wincon to assume he'd know to do off rip. It’s still a really sick MU and more Metroid MU’s make me happy.


Rayquaza VS Bahamut:

(TN by TDG)


TDG:

I think if any Legendary deserves the spotlight in VS it’s Rayquaza itself. Bahamut is also one of FF’s most iconic summons. The issue is just how do you comp Bahamut? Look, regardless it’s still an awesome MU and DB are afraid of doing a Dragon Matchup. That needs to change.


Darkrai VS Antasma:

(TN by TDG)


TDG:

This one just works. Dream-related antagonists are always fun. Darkrai is one of the most iconic Legendaries of all time, and Antasma…not so much for Mario villains. Regardless, having a Mario & Luigi villain on would be amazing, focusing exclusively on those games would make this insanely fun to cover. Going in between the dreams of others and eventually themselves is an insanely cool concept.


Eggman VS Kaos:

(TN by SpriteFightMan)


Sprite:

Yeah I like it! Connections are solid with both being army leading bald having maniacs who occasionally team up with the hero, lord Vortech is probably better I get that but idk man, this one’s just fun, great banter potential with their cartoony personalities, great army dynamic with their massive amounts of troops, and a great potential between chaos in his higher forms and Eggman in say the Time Eater or his other powerful mechs.


As for who wins? Probably eggman, although I won’t break it down due to my limited sky lander knowledge


Mephiles VS Cetrion:

(TN by TDG)


TDG:

I’m not even gonna pretend like this is thematic or anything or even understand this one fully. Deity of light vs Deity of darkness. Both part of a grand plan that is related to the timeline, the means of which require them to merge with their other, almost opposite half. I guess I could cook on Drunk’s Powerscaling with this one.


ManOfAction:

I didn’t think there was a single person alive who actually liked Cetrion, yet here we are. Do people like Mephiles either? Hopefully not. The thought is scary. Mephy probably wins.


Mephiles VS Zamasu:

 
 
(TN by Man Of Action)


Comet:

I don’t remember this being a thing, I would’ve expected Mephiles to fight Goku Black but IG this still works. Mephiles only scaling to Base Sonic Stats kinda screws him since Zamasu can scale to the higher tier Super Stats (Aka the God Transformations) and is Immortal…whelp nice meeting you Mephy see you when you appear again in 2036'



 Mugen Kage:

This MU becomes way better when you add Iblis and Goku Black into the mix, with the climax of course being Solaris vs Infinite Zamasu. I definitely see why Mephiles is fighting Zamasu, Goku Black probably better represents the copycat side of him, but Zamasu better represents the cunning mind of Mephiles. Both can work, but I do believe this works better as a two-on-two and allowing them both to fuse into their final forms.


Blursed:

Big fan of this matchup, but… MOST OF ALL when it’s Iblis and Mephiles vs Goku Black and Zamasu. It’d be interesting to cover the dynamic between Solaris and Infinite Zamasu, since Black and Zamasu admittedly cook the shit out of Mephiles and Iblis when neither side is fused LOL.


Black Doom VS Darkrai:

(TN by TDG)


TDG:

I mean this is just the natural way to end the Legendary VS Sonic Antagonist trilogy. I’d do this as a cast or a full video to be honest. The Eyeball forms both gained recently are the main reason of course, but otherwise they….are dark…ness-related…it’s vibes the matchup.


Mugen Kage:

This is just fun lol! Both are prone to inducing nightmares on their targets, Darkrai cause he’s literally the Nightmare Pokemon, and Black Doom because… he likes to psychologically torture Shadow. They both got their starfish-looking eye forms, but honestly what sold me on this MU is… there’s absolutely NO WAY Gamefreak didn’t take inspiration from Shadow Generations when designing Mega Darkrai and Mega Absol Z, just LOOK AT THEM lmao! 

 

Necrozma VS Omega Shenron:

 
(TN by Man Of Action)

Comet:

I was always interested in this type of thing, with Necrozma being my favorite Legendary and Omega Shenron

having a rlly cool design, this MU kinda hit the hard notes for me. The debate is very interesting depending on

where you scale GT as there are some conflicting opinions about it…to varying degrees of acceptance. But hey

let’s remember what community we’re in. Plus I get to see Photon Geyser VS Minus Power Ball, like come on

guys that’d be cool as all hell. Plus Ultra Necrozma has an absolutely sick design and I will never apologize for

that opinion, look at this thing it’s amazing!


Blursed:

Now this is just Ash vs GT Goku but not weird and I’m ALL for it! I love the idea of putting these two crystal-based power-stealing legends against each other, especially when you consider how cool it would be pitting Ultra Necrozma and Omega Shenron against each other… talk about hype moments and aura!

Although, I must say that Necrozma probably gets cooked by the sheer amount of bullshit Shenron can pull out of his ass hax-wise, lol

Chaos vs Biollante:

(TN by Bridgette)


Bridgette:

I honestly prefer this for Chaos over Kyogre mainly because I think it’s more thematic in how chaos is and him being a weapon of war. Is it very debatable? Prolly not, but I just wanna see 2 Kaiju who have similar designs and such fight and I really like it.


Radiant Claire:

Really cool MU with one of my fav kaiju of all time. IDK who’d win cuz I lowkey don't know a lot of Biollante info outside her OG film and what I vaguely remember from the Recent Godzilla comic that featured her prominently, but tbh I'm probably leaning Chaos just from what I know, but I’d gladly do this as a quick blog cuz it doesn’t take much to research Biollante.



Giovanni VS All For One

(TN by Man Of Action)


Man Of Action:

This one's pretty fun. Of course it's a stomp, even only using the adventures manga but I like it nonetheless. An army fight between the 2 would be ideal, although it seems like a lot of work for pretty much the same result. I always thought Giovanni was cool, and I don’t really think he has any other good match-ups.


Mugen Kage:

As a massive fan of MHA, All For One and the League of Villains, I love matchups that get them all involved, and I loved this MU at first sight! On paper it SEEMS like a massive stomp, through nothing short of a hard carry by Deoxys, but I’m of the opinion that All For One plus the L.O.V have just the right abilities to turn this from a stomp into an unlikely underdog victory! The DB crew has said that they very much like the idea of this MU, even going as far to say that Giovanni is one of the most requested Pokemon trainers to get an episode, so I wouldn’t write this off from happening in a year or two's time!



Final Word from TDG:

So Kyogre VS Chaos? Great matchup, interesting debate, and one I feel like will get us just the right amount of controversy since I THINK we’ve gone for the underdog? Anyways, this was sort of a redemption for Mewtwo VS Shadow, our first blog! Whilst it’s far from bad, my crew put a lot of effort into it, but man does it suck at explaining anything, something I hoped to amend here.

 

Shoutout to: G1 Ash VS Yugi, G1 Cell VS Metal and Bowser Eggman, OffSeason's Red VS Tai, Extinctions Event's Spike vs Ethan ,our own Mewtwo VS Shadow for various calcs. It should also be mentioned there is a now deleted blog on this matchup, useful for helping with links for some of the basics for their arsenals!


As for the future of blogs it really depends on the reception for this one to be honest. We have a small roadmap at the moment, with a certain Season 2 Death Battle Matchup coming up next if this continues!


Emphasis on if, look I’ve done 4 of these now and most of the WRITING has been done by myself. Emphasis on writing. These are my blogs after all and I wish to advocate a certain tone, and usually I am very picky about letting others write stuff for me…but if things are to continue that has to change. It’s not to say these have been a waste of time, but I have spent WAY too much time on these 4 blogs to the point I’ve neglected personal duties or just enjoying new media in general. Kyogre VS Chaos has just reinforced that I can't keep doing these if things don’t change. So, regardless of when Blog 5 drops, I will likely be more open to letting my crew take the reigns in regards to writing. Maybe it’ll be a mess, maybe it won’t. But I need to rest and focus on my own content and life, whilst still taking part in research ofc (I don’t believe a blog exists for next time). Needless to say, spending 6 hours writing team verdicts may not have been a smart idea. Live and Learn tho right (wait that’s the sequel game)? With all that said, thank you to those that helped with research on this blog, I hope you readers enjoyed, and as always, be excellent to each other :)

 

Oh also watch my video on the MU 


Comments

  1. TamesomberAugust 2, 2026 at 6:30 PM

    I know what you are.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. DrunkGiraffeAugust 2, 2026 at 6:36 PM

      I don't feel safe.

      Delete
    2. TamesomberAugust 2, 2026 at 6:52 PM

      *puss in boots death whistle sfx*

      Delete
    3. DrunkGiraffeAugust 2, 2026 at 7:12 PM

      Death VS Kai Blog tease fr

      Delete
    4. Norisu Ninja vs BlogAugust 3, 2026 at 9:06 AM

      Hi, nice blog. Have you considered doing Red vs Deku (Pokémon Adventures vs My Hero Academia)?

      Delete
  2. Peptocoptr27August 4, 2026 at 4:48 PM

    How is Kyogre supposed to bend the water that makes up Chaos' body when he would need to contend with Chaos' drastically higher lifting strenght? He scales WAY above a single Chaos Emerald shifting a continent. Kyogre can't push and pull around someone with that kind of strenght.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. DrunkGiraffeAugust 7, 2026 at 2:02 AM

      I'll be honest I don't think your logic works well. Bending water has nothing to do with Chaos' lifting strength, I really don't understand your point. Water is water. So long as Chaos weighs less than that of the Pokemon Earths Oceans that is enough. Again, the hydrokinesis hax bypasses Durability because it's not directly attacking Chaos, it's manipulating the body.

      Delete

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